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History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Note too that it's possible (I am trying to position this delicately because this comment is in no way, shape or form intended to naively give Hitler any benefit of the doubt) but had Hitler run unopposed by even GB the Madagascar Plan may not have been scrapped for the Final Solution, although there are reasons aplenty to severely doubt that abominable decision wasn't inevitable.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

I didn't read through the whole thread, so don't know if this was mentioned or not, but if you want to listen to a great piece on the WW2 eastern front, check out Hardcore History's Ghosts of the Ostfront. Done extremely well, and while I knew a bit about it going in, still very eye opening. If you have interest in the topic and haven't listened, it really is a must-listen to. (and really, most of Hardcore History is a must listen)
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Kepler said:
WW2 is perhaps the only example in history of a war that wasn't stupid.
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What a great thought to ponder....Define "stupid" in this context.

I put forth the idea that the Civil War was not stupid, it ended slavery in the US.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Timothy A said:
What a great thought to ponder....Define "stupid" in this context.

I put forth the idea that the Civil War was not stupid, it ended slavery in the US.
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Well, stupid is probably the wrong word. I was trying to find an alternative to "just," because a "just war" has historically been any war started by the eventual winner.

Few wars wouldn't have been better done if, instead, the leaders met at dawn and blew one another away.

In future war should simply be conducted by wiring the 1%'s homes in both nations with dynamite and then randomly detonating them until one side sues for peace.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Timothy A said:
What a great thought to ponder....Define "stupid" in this context.

I put forth the idea that the Civil War was not stupid, it ended slavery in the US.
Click to expand...

There are historians out there that started making the argument that the Civil War was 100% avoidable had the US taken the time and effort to, more or less, purchase all of the slaves from their masters and then set them free. It would've been cheaper than the cost of the war, and at least six fewer people would've died as a result.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

St. Clown said:
There are historians out there that started making the argument that the Civil War was 100% avoidable had the US taken the time and effort to, more or less, purchase all of the slaves from their masters and then set them free. It would've been cheaper than the cost of the war, and at least six fewer people would've died as a result.
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I think that is flawed. No way it goes that smoothly, and I think a rebellion of some kind ends up happening anyway. There was way more to the civil war than slavery, and buying the slaves does not fix any of that.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

St. Clown said:
There are historians out there that started making the argument that the Civil War was 100% avoidable had the US taken the time and effort to, more or less, purchase all of the slaves from their masters and then set them free. It would've been cheaper than the cost of the war, and at least six fewer people would've died as a result.
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Wouldn't buying the slaves have proven the southerners' point?
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

bigblue_dl said:
I think that is flawed. No way it goes that smoothly, and I think a rebellion of some kind ends up happening anyway. There was way more to the civil war than slavery, and buying the slaves does not fix any of that.
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I agree in part. If you look at the build up to the war, there were a whole slew of economic laws passed that favored the North over the South, due in part to the types of industry they favored.

Purchasing the slaves could've been done, but it would have been tricky, and would have required assistance from reluctant local authorities. I should say, it's more of a theoretical possibility, but a practical non-starter. Still, it's an interesting what-if thing to ponder.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

burd said:
Wouldn't buying the slaves have proven the southerners' point?
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No, I don't think so. It could easily have been spun as a sort of eminent domain issue, or simply as the cost of avoiding blood shed, valuing all human and not just those who've been unjustly subjugated, and the that the end result is what really mattered.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

If you've ever read "Once an Eagle", there's a bit where one of the "good" Generals wanted to bottle the smells of the battlefield and release it on the floors of Congress and in the offices of the powerbrokers. After they finish vomiting, they may not want to wave the flag, cite patriotism, and mount a war.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

joecct said:
If you've ever read "Once an Eagle", there's a bit where one of the "good" Generals wanted to bottle the smells of the battlefield and release it on the floors of Congress and in the offices of the powerbrokers. After they finish vomiting, they may not want to wave the flag, cite patriotism, and mount a war.
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I bought this on Kindle because of your earlier review of it, but I have yet to read it. Gimme some more inspiration to get me into it. :)
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Did you just ask Joe to talk dirty to you?
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Let's be honest. That's true at any age. When we're young, we're too horny to care. When we're old, we're moved beyond shame.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

We all learned about Lincoln's assassination, but the whole story was really never told. I read "Manhunt" by James L Swanson. I see that historical moment in a whole new light. Highly recommend.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

Brenthoven said:
We all learned about Lincoln's assassination, but the whole story was really never told. I read "Manhunt" by James L Swanson. I see that historical moment in a whole new light. Highly recommend.
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Here's my biased thinking: It covers the entire Confederate conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln, the assassination itself, and the subsequent flight of Wilkes-Booth until his ultimate capture and death.

What am I missing? Elements from the North that felt his assassination was justified?
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
Here's my biased thinking: It covers the entire Confederate conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln, the assassination itself, and the subsequent flight of Wilkes-Booth until his ultimate capture and death.

What am I missing? Elements from the North that felt his assassination was justified?
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In school, we just learned that Wilkes-Booth was mad at Lincoln for the war, he shot Lincoln in a theater, and that he was found and killed. No real backstory, no in-depth of what it all entailed. Like the Civil War, where I was taught it was pretty much about slavery, it actually is deeper than that. A lot more details in the reasons, a lot more detail in the aftermath (since the PRESIDENT was killed), and the nation wondering WTeFF just happened?

I guess I think a LOT of history is glossed over in the name of trying to teach everyone the highlights, instead of teaching everyone all the reasons why these important historical events happened. JFK shot: it was a crazy person. Nothing more. Well....at least give us some theories other than that. Iraq/Kuwait conflict: SADDAM! (Oh yeah, and oil/political interests).

History classes in the US are pretty much like ESPN highlight shows nowadays (and back when I was in HS some *cough* years ago). Yeah, we probably already know the basic facts. Give us some substance.
 
Kepler said:
I bought this on Kindle because of your earlier review of it, but I have yet to read it. Gimme some more inspiration to get me into it. :)
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There are no sex scenes.

Remember, although a story about war and warriors, much like All Quiet on the Western Front, it is a very anti war novel.

It's also a story of leadership and how to motivate ordinary people to do extraordinary things.

Also, you'll see how to deal with extraordinarily stupid people.
 
Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

I finally caught onto Hardcore History after bbdl mentioned it to me (again) and I got a small taste of it this past weekend.

I’m blown away by this series. The Blueprint for Armageddon is jaw dropping.
 
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