Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

[Rover]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Where were these arguments with Saddam under the two Bushes? Funny how then the enemy we knew, and the power vacuum that would arise if they fell, wouldnt be so much of a problem. And spare me the "We have to learn from our mistakes" because nothing in the foreign policy under the last 4 presidents has involved us learning from our (or other's mistakes) mistakes. Where was this idea when we invaded Afghanistan, a country that defeated the friggin USSR?

And I am sorry, but there is no way keeping despots like Qaddafi in power is a good thing. Could another despot take over? Sure that is always a possibility but the will of the people, and as of now that is what this is, is more important than what is in the best interests of America. If the Libyans want him out and if he gives NATO a reason to support the rebels (which he has for decades) than have at it.

Under your freaked out, scared as **** view of the world we would have been better off NOT letting Communism/Iron Curtain fall in the Soviet Union because they were the enemy we knew. Yeah I wonder if there is ANYONE who agrees with that? (certainly no one in Eastern Europe I would bet)

I suspect joecct view on this changes with whatever party is in power. Under the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mantra, Khadafi is now a friend of the right wing for standing up to Obama....

The same thing happened in Serbia where cons were telling us what a swell guy Slobo Milosevic was and pay no attention to those concentration camps and mass graves over there.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I think I'd give Obama a B+ on foriegn policy to date (which is great...I'd probably give Reagan a higher grade if Gorby wasn't primarily responsible for ending the cold war). IMO the Obama blemishes is his hanging on to Afghanistan.

Well, if contrast counts for anything Obama gets an A+ just for not being one of the sociopaths who preceded him (see Thread title). But I think Obama has fallen VERY short of expectations. Winding up Iraq in his first term is very good, but he reversed on Gitmo and trials and, for all intents and purposes, the Patriot Act and the rest of the Military-Intelligence Warfare State. Again, it doesn't seem so bad because the Neocons set the bar so impossibly low, but given the state of the economy and the success in getting bin Laden, he's wasted an opportunity to lead the country out of that decade of darkness and shame, and restore our foreign policy as radically as they debased it.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Well, if contrast counts for anything Obama gets an A+ just for not being one of the sociopaths who preceded him (see Thread title). But I think Obama has fallen VERY short of expectations. Winding up Iraq in his first term is very good, but he reversed on Gitmo and trials and, for all intents and purposes, the Patriot Act and the rest of the Military-Intelligence Warfare State. Again, it doesn't seem so bad because the Neocons set the bar so impossibly low, but given the state of the economy and the success in getting bin Laden, he's wasted an opportunity to lead the country out of that decade of darkness and shame, and restore our foreign policy as radically as they debased it.

Although the points you make are right on...I gotta give him a bit more credit. There's the cracks that you point out...but largely we are on decent terms with most countries and Obama has resisted the urge to find an enemy behind every border. Indeed even the childish ones...Putin's Russia and Iran. Good, bad or indifferent, several major countries have joined the Democracy category...which IMO is something that had to happen in a world of similar global perspective anyways.

I think its important to revisit...who would be better and why? If you go back past GHB, you have cold war...and there were massive foriegn policy mistakes made in just maintaining that nightmare.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I suspect joecct view on this changes with whatever party is in power. Under the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mantra, Khadafi is now a friend of the right wing for standing up to Obama....

The same thing happened in Serbia where cons were telling us what a swell guy Slobo Milosevic was and pay no attention to those concentration camps and mass graves over there.

Not really. If you want to invade a country, you need to be prepared for the citizenry to be a bit ticked off with an outsider intruding and be prepared to defend yourself against partisan attacks. If the Chinese crossed over the Canadian and Mexican borders with the objective of overthrowing BHO, I'd be right next to Kepler defending Lock 12 from the invaders. If we want a regime change, we do it, not rely on some foreign invader. I wonder if history will have the Iraqi supporters of the USA invasion marked as collaborators/Quislings or heroes?? The winners (and the firing squads) will determine that.

On Iraq -- All the 43's cared about was capturing the king and they failed to envision on how to protect the franchise after the king was toppled. To paraphrase the Don in the application of foreign policy "It's business, not personal." And in case of 43, it appears it was personal, and that is not the way to conduct foreign policy. OOPS!

However, we're there and the vacuum exists. F democracy - that area is incapable of democracy as we understand it. Put a Benevolent Despot in there that is friendly to us and pray he lives 24 months after we cut the umbilical cord. Ditto with Afghanistan.

To back on topic, I wonder what is going to happen to the "Arab Spring" countries? We have one vacuum, about to get another, and possibly a 3rd if Syria topples. Then what? I am not confident that anything that comes out of these revolutions is going to be something that we can write home to mother about.

So it comes down to a vision of foreign policy. Does the USA have the right to tell every government how to behave? Do we have the right to correct morally reprehensible acts if they have no bearing on the well being of US citizens or interests? Do we want to actively participate in regime changes or not? The actives have been pretty much in charge for the last 100 years or so. Time will tell if that was (is) the right way to conduct business.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Lets all give our props to President Obama for succeeding where Reagan failed and where Bush II refused to go. Khadafi (or however the F he chooses to spell his name this week) was a far worse international supporter of terrorism than anybody not named OBL and right now this admin has bagged both of them. Lets just hope he's smart enough not to take an air force jet onto a carrier sitting in Tripoli harbor.

Don't forget to give props to the "peace movement," which would have gone ape sh*t if Bush had authorized "kinetic military action" against the daffy one. Cindy Sheehan would have committed sepuku. In some ways it's analogous to Nixon's opening to China. He had the anti-communist cred to pull it off. Deadmeat's got the MSM covering for him every step of the way, and lefty "peaceniks" are only concerned about "peace" when a Republican's in the WH. Even so, I tip my hat to BHO.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Although the points you make are right on...I gotta give him a bit more credit. There's the cracks that you point out...but largely we are on decent terms with most countries and Obama has resisted the urge to find an enemy behind every border. Indeed even the childish ones...Putin's Russia and Iran. Good, bad or indifferent, several major countries have joined the Democracy category...which IMO is something that had to happen in a world of similar global perspective anyways.

I think its important to revisit...who would be better and why? If you go back past GHB, you have cold war...and there were massive foriegn policy mistakes made in just maintaining that nightmare.

There has never been a benevolent world power, so some of the harkening back to a "golden age" of America's foreign policy is really wishing we were Sweden and it didn't matter what we did. Back when the Swedes were a power, they were a-holes too.

Hopefully as the right wing gets their wish and the government is bankrupted, we will decide we're too poor to afford the Empire and let it go. That will take a lot of deprogramming, though, and a third of the country will still get a hard-on every time some demagogue talks about military hardware or whatever the desperate bellicosity of the week is.

 

[Rover]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The USA has the right to tell other countries how to behave in regards to 1) if they decide to sponsor or tolerate terrorism, or 2) if they are recipients of foreign aide. That's why the US should cut off funding for Israel. They're a sovereign nation who's policies seem to be drifting apart from the USA's. That's their right, but we need not keep funding them.

So in terms of Egypt, there's the potential for a democratic multiparty nation there. There's also billions of American aide propping up the country. Can you say "leverage"? While its true there are few democratic roots in these areas, the same could be said for Eastern Europe. I believe the Baltics had very few years of self rule before WWII/Soviet Union. Hungary was part of a monarchy until WWI and absorbed by the Warsaw Pact after WWII. The list goes on. All of these countries made the transition successfully. The fact that GOP candidates are running away from foreign policy discussions at the speed of light ought to tell you all you need to know about Obama's effectiveness in that arena. When's the last time that happened in a Presidential election?

Lastly for Kep, I think your criticisms of Obama's foreign policy are a bit harsh. If anything it would be nice if he'd be as resolute in pursuing his domestic policy as he is in his foreign policy. OBL bagged. START treaty ratified in the face of idiotic opposition. Somali pirates bagged. Devastating drone strikes against Al Qaida. Getting out of Iraq. Turning things around in Afghanistan. Finally toppling Khadafi in Libya. Having three other dictatorships overthrown (Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen) with no backlash against the US (which is almost reflexive over there).

Look, I would have liked Gitmo closed by now. He had a strategy and didn't pursue it. There's also no movement in the Isreal-Palestine conflict although there rarely is. Would also like to see some Patriot Act provisions scaled back a bit. All in all though, I completely agree with the B+ assessment in ANY time, not just compared to the last admin.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Al Jazeera English is running live reporting out of Tripoli which is amazing, as usual. They have a reporter right at the front who pops up, runs a quick update, then has to cut off as the position comes under attack. It's the most honest field reporting from a war zone I've seen since Vietnam.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

All in all though, I completely agree with the B+ assessment in ANY time, not just compared to the last admin.

Just the fact that since the start of this thread in 2009, its content has been pretty much off topic (not GWOT) is kudos to the govt.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

There's also no movement in the Isreal-Palestine conflict although there rarely is.

Palestine is where US foreign policies go to die. If anything I would like to see the US invest less and less of our international political capital there as time goes on. Israel is an important strategic ally because of the oil, but given the demographics of the area we should always be pushing to develop other strategic allies. The only significant, dependable Muslim ally we had there was Iran under the Shah, and there we learned the terrible mistake of propping up a vicious dictator against all our principles of democracy and self-government.

Obama does get full marks for the American response to the Arab Spring, which has been positive but quiet so as to not undermine it in a region that has bitter memories of western colonialism. My main beef with his foreign policy is really the domestic effects of it: the crippling economic damage of a military on steroids and of his (likely inevitable politically, but still depressing) decision to let criminals like Yoo and Cheney ride off into the sunset unpunished.

 

[Rover]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Kep, I'm as liberal as the next guy, but I draw the line at prosecuting Dick Cheney. As amusing as that may be, it sinks the US into banana republic status. I can't stand the guy, but they operated close enough to the edge as to not break any laws. Basically they'd take a stupid position (detaining US citizens at the President's discretion for example) and then let the court process drag on for years until finally the SCOTUS ruled. In this particular example they slapped the Admin down pretty hard. Unless they continued to do the activity that the court specifically ruled against there's nothing to get them on. Could go after the Valerie Plame thing, but I'm guessing Scooter Libby who's already been pardoned takes the fall for that one.

Regarding Gitmo, unfortunately that is going to remain a problem for every President until the last of the detainees pass away. Some of them are too dangerous to release, but can't be prosecuted under the law because the incriminating evidence was obtained through illegal means. There's no good options there that I can see.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Personally I haven't been thinking of military spending as foriegn policy...if it were, I would change my grade.

I would posit evidence of a positive foriegn policy:

Kim Jong Il takes over in 1994
Relations between the Koreas warm
The first summit between the Koreas occurs in 2000
The Koreas jointly host and have a single team in the World Cup in 2002
US calls North Korea axis of evil
Relations with North Korea deteriorate, including firing across the border, sinking of ships and bombing islands
Slow change towards positive foriegn policy...and now:


North Korea Reportedly Ready to Halt WMD Tests

Aug. 24: Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, right, shakes hands with North Korean leader Kim Jong Il outside Ulan-Ude in Byryatia.

MOSCO – North Korea is ready to impose a moratorium on nuclear missile tests if international talks on its nuclear program resume, a spokesman for Russia's president said Wednesday after talks between the two leaders.

Russian news agencies, meanwhile, reported that North Korean leader Kim Jong Il said the country is ready to resume talks "without preconditions."

The six-sided talks have been long-stalled, but Kim's Russia trip comes as his country pushes to restart them. South Korea and Washington have demanded that the North first show its sincerity on fulfilling past nuclear commitments.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Kep, I'm as liberal as the next guy, but I draw the line at prosecuting Dick Cheney. As amusing as that may be, it sinks the US into banana republic status. I can't stand the guy, but they operated close enough to the edge as to not break any laws.

It shouldn't be liberal vs conservative. If anything, small "c" conservatives ought to have been far more appalled by the war crimes because they are, after all, supposed to believe in natural law, absolutes, and non-contextual morality.

I agree with you completely that we'll never see a great power executive actually prosecuted by the ICC for violations of international law, but that's for the same reason that you'll never see a great power stopped by the UN Security Council -- for all the talk of international law, the system is run for the benefit of the big states at the end of the day.

What the Bush administration really did was change the standard of comparison of American actions. By the international yardstick, of course, they were just garden variety thugs. But by the American yardstick, they are war criminals. The tragedy is that the American yardstick now no longer exists -- ironically, they were the ones who really destroyed our "exceptionalism," which used to be something we could be genuinely proud of.

Hopefully as we get farther and farther away from the event it will just become a disgusting but isolated episode, rather than a precedent. The Brits had their concentration camps but particularly as their empire slipped away they returned to their ideals, mostly. We can do the same.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

North Korea Reportedly Ready to Halt WMD Tests

Aug. 24: Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, right, shakes hands with North Korean leader Kim Jong Il outside Ulan-Ude in Byryatia.

MOSCO – North Korea is ready to impose a moratorium on nuclear missile tests if international talks on its nuclear program resume, a spokesman for Russia's president said Wednesday after talks between the two leaders.

Russian news agencies, meanwhile, reported that North Korean leader Kim Jong Il said the country is ready to resume talks "without preconditions."

The six-sided talks have been long-stalled, but Kim's Russia trip comes as his country pushes to restart them. South Korea and Washington have demanded that the North first show its sincerity on fulfilling past nuclear commitments.

Speaking as the apparent Tinfoil Hat Howard Zinn of Foreign Policy, I don't believe this for a second. IMHO NK's nuclear weapons program will hum along at the same pace. It's completely disconnected from their diplomatic statements. Same with Iran.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Speaking as the apparent Tinfoil Hat Howard Zinn of Foreign Policy, I don't believe this for a second. IMHO NK's nuclear weapons program will hum along at the same pace. It's completely disconnected from their diplomatic statements. Same with Iran.

Iran and NK are very different animals...much of it due to motivations, geography and internal support. Iran's anger has significant support due to internal religious conservatives and perceived injury due to Israel, etc. North Korea is in planted in the middle of the hottest growing regional economy in the world; couple that with China and Russia (both of whom have vested interest in peace) being neighbors...motivations are different. We don't know what will happen. But the pressure to play nice is enormous...and with no constant escalation of tensions coming from the outside, I would say its more likely NK stays quiet which is a big improvement over it earning an axis of evil label. That's me.

 

[MattS]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Winding up Iraq in his first term is very good

Hahahaha! I am pretty sure this isn't going to practically happen any time soon. Anyone who thinks the US Military isn't still running and will continue to the show in Iraq is a fool. The only thing that has happened since Obama took over is less soldiers are dying.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Hahahaha! I am pretty sure this isn't going to practically happen any time soon. Anyone who thinks the US Military isn't still running and will continue to the show in Iraq is a fool. The only thing that has happened since Obama took over is less soldiers are dying.

We are projected to have no US troops in Iraq after December 31. It's going to be hard to run the show from Kuwait.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

We are projected to have no US troops in Iraq after December 31. It's going to be hard to run the show from Kuwait.

Your forgot the year.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Your forgot the year.

2011.

The DOD is doing its best to maintain its budget, er, our security by pressuring Iraq to "ask" us to stay longer, but they are still negotiating the size of the bribe.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

2011.

The DOD is doing its best to maintain its budget, er, our security by pressuring Iraq to "ask" us to stay longer, but they haven't bribed them enough yet.

I happen to agree with you. We created the mess and have no idea how to clean it up. Sounds like Dan Snyder.