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Gender Studies I

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psych said:
In your hypothetical scenario of 1,000,000 racers, only 2,121 of them would be trans females. My crude math yesterday placed around five trans students in each U.S. high school, both public and private. My entire point was that this event (trans females beating cis females in sports) almost never happens, because trans females are rare, trans female athletes are rarer, and elite trans female athletes are the rarest. It's something that shouldn't even be noticed as it so rarely occurs, along the same lines of trans females pretending to be female so they can enter public restrooms and prey on cis females. As rare as voter fraud, IMO. I have to say I haven't seen a single post about trans males and their competitive edge/safety concerns against cis males. It makes me think most of the disagreement lies in the competitiveness factor, more so than the safety factor, of trans athletes competing in sports.
That all said, my main argument is that trans people have gone through enough in life, why put up another exclusionary barrier? They attempt suicide at astronomical rates compared to the rest of us, due in no small part to the ridiculous amount of stress they experience on a daily basis. The competitiveness/safety factors are far outweighed by the inclusion and acceptance of one of the most marginalized groups in our country.
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Again. I don't find "it's rare" to be a compelling argument. It will become less rare. Necessarily. So we should have a discussion about it and have some guidelines in place. And my proposed solution is to let the governing bodies of each sport decide for themselves.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Again. I don't find "it's rare" to be a compelling argument. It will become less rare. Necessarily. So we should have a discussion about it and have some guidelines in place. And my proposed solution is to let the governing bodies of each sport decide for themselves.
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What's going to make a naturally occurring phenomenon become less rare? Also, aren't there already guidelines in place by the NCAA and IOC for trans athletes? So, your guidelines would pertain to high school athletics? Would that mean the state's high school athletic association would decide who gets to compete and who doesn't? I'm sure that would lead to the "stupid f-cking red states" type posts when the entire South rules against allowing trans females to compete, because again, no one seems to be too up-in-arms about trans males competing against cis males.

Edit: We're having the discussion. I don't think there should be any guidelines in place because it's almost never a situation that requires intervention, just like voter fraud. It's so rare, and will continue to be that way, since trans people are born trans, and I don't see that naturally occurring number increasing astronomically. And even if it does, what isn't rare is the amount of f-cking sh-t that every trans person experiences in his/her life, so I think that outweighs the paucity of sporting events negatively affected by a trans person's inclusion in them.
 
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Uh, societal acceptance becoming more common?

hey, great I'm glad there are already guidelines in place by the governing bodies. Don't take my ignorance to them as opposition or trying to argue something else.
 
psych said:
What's going to make a naturally occurring phenomenon become less rare? Also, aren't there already guidelines in place by the NCAA and IOC for trans athletes? So, your guidelines would pertain to high school athletics? Would that mean the state's high school athletic association would decide who gets to compete and who doesn't? I'm sure that would lead to the "stupid f-cking red states" type posts when the entire South rules against allowing trans females to compete, because again, no one seems to be too up-in-arms about trans males competing against cis males.

Edit: We're having the discussion. I don't think there should be any guidelines in place because it's almost never a situation that requires intervention, just like voter fraud. It's so rare, and will continue to be that way, since trans people are born trans, and I don't see that naturally occurring number increasing astronomically. And even if it does, what isn't rare is the amount of f-cking sh-t that every trans person experiences in his/her life, so I think that outweighs the paucity of sporting events negatively affected by a trans person's inclusion in them.
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Just to clarify some stuff: Someone who is a trans-male actually can compete. Women can compete against men. But Men can't compete against Women. This is actually spelled out pretty cleanly in many cases. For example, it's not exactly rare to see a female playing football (no women's equivalent) or baseball (softball is an equal on the women's side). I've seen both multiple times here in IL in games I have worked.

As to the IOC/NCAA standards for trans athletes: They are long, and they are expensive. Basically someone needs to undergo multiple years of HRT. It's just not feasible, as most of your HS athletes are likely to have discovered who they are within the previous 6-12 months. No time for the 2-4 year process required by the IOC/NCAA.
 
RaceBoarder said:
Just to clarify some stuff: Someone who is a trans-male actually can compete. Women can compete against men. But Men can't compete against Women. This is actually spelled out pretty cleanly in many cases. For example, it's not exactly rare to see a female playing football (no women's equivalent) or baseball (softball is an equal on the women's side). I've seen both multiple times here in IL in games I have worked.

As to the IOC/NCAA standards for trans athletes: They are long, and they are expensive. Basically someone needs to undergo multiple years of HRT. It's just not feasible, as most of your HS athletes are likely to have discovered who they are within the previous 6-12 months. No time for the 2-4 year process required by the IOC/NCAA.
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Alright, so, your second paragraph basically means very, very few, trans female athletes can compete in the NCAA or IOC? Like, fewer than with no guidelines/restrictions on trans participation?
Your first paragraph: So, is safety not as important for cis females or trans males competing in male sports? Sounds like we’re more likely to see cis females competing in cis male sports than trans females competing in female sports. So, why don’t we ban cis females or trans females from playing football or hockey or rugby?
Dx, since I’m incapable of quoting more than one post in a reply, increased societal acceptance won’t increase the number of trans people living in the U.S., but it may increase the number of trans people participating in sports. So, of the 2.5 trans females per high school, 2 may compete in sports going forward, rather than 1.5, or 1. Significant increase, but still a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall sports population.
 
psych said:
Alright, so, your second paragraph basically means very, very few, trans female athletes can compete in the NCAA or IOC? Like, fewer than with no guidelines/restrictions on trans participation?
Your first paragraph: So, is safety not as important for cis females or trans males competing in male sports? Sounds like we’re more likely to see cis females competing in cis male sports than trans females competing in female sports. So, why don’t we ban cis females or trans females from playing football or hockey or rugby?
Dx, since I’m incapable of quoting more than one post in a reply, increased societal acceptance won’t increase the number of trans people living in the U.S., but it may increase the number of trans people participating in sports. So, of the 2.5 trans females per high school, 2 may compete in sports going forward, rather than 1.5, or 1. Significant increase, but still a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall sports population.
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In the case of Safety, CIS Females "opt in" to playing against males in the cases where they compete in a guys division. A CIS Female doesn't NOT "opt in" to a more dangerous level of competition when competing in a women's division. Again, it's a "one way" scenario.

(And for the record, there was a case in Texas where a Trans-male individual was denied competing in the Boys division at the State wrestling tournament. TX ruled that they only allow individuals to compete in their division based on anatomical gender. The individual had started HRT (adding Testosterone). They easily walked through their CIS competition. )

As far as numbers at "Elite" levels, yes, it is highly structured. This is why I'm more content with Lia at the NCAA's than I am with a HS athlete. Even in her case, her performance fell 5%, but her ranking rose 10%. So even that isn't exactly an even reduction.
 
psych said:
Alright, so, your second paragraph basically means very, very few, trans female athletes can compete in the NCAA or IOC? Like, fewer than with no guidelines/restrictions on trans participation?
Your first paragraph: So, is safety not as important for cis females or trans males competing in male sports? Sounds like we’re more likely to see cis females competing in cis male sports than trans females competing in female sports. So, why don’t we ban cis females or trans females from playing football or hockey or rugby?
Dx, since I’m incapable of quoting more than one post in a reply, increased societal acceptance won’t increase the number of trans people living in the U.S., but it may increase the number of trans people participating in sports. So, of the 2.5 trans females per high school, 2 may compete in sports going forward, rather than 1.5, or 1. Significant increase, but still a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall sports population.
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Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My point isn't that the number of trans people will increase. It's that more are willing to attempt to live more open lives and push the boundaries of current norms (sorry about the phrasing here, I didn't like it but the best I could do while trying to stay distracted during this dept meeting).
 
Bear in mind, I'm off this board 23 hours a day. A lot of what I discuss in here is related to what happens in those 23 hours. (So, not in discussions here).

It's also super frustrating to read headlines like "trans beats 14,000 women in London Marathon, volunteers to give medal back," only to dig further and find she finished 6,159th and was bullied and harassed into giving a participation medal back.

It's frustrating to read about parents who "only care about the ones who are winning."

It's frustrating to read about lawmakers who are clueless about this issue and can only repeat statements written by ADF.

It's frustrating to see a near artificial interest in women's weightlifting or swimming because of the presence of a trans woman, then watch that interest disappear without a trans woman's presence. If I asked who Missy Franklin is, 99% of responses would be incorrect. (She is a former world record holder in the 200m backstroke.)

It was frustrating to read comments last year to the effect of "Lia is going to destroy women's swimming." Last year, Lia won the 500 yard in 4:33. Katie Ledecky holds that record at 4:24.

The list goes on.
 
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MissThundercat said:
Bear in mind, I'm off this board 23 hours a day. A lot of what I discuss in here is related to what happens in those 23 hours. (So, not in discussions here).

It's also super frustrating to read headlines like "trans beats 14,000 women in London Marathon, volunteers to give medal back," only to dig further and find she finished 6,159th and was bullied and harassed into giving a participation medal back.

It's frustrating to read about parents who "only care about the ones who are winning."

It's frustrating to read about lawmakers who are clueless about this issue and can only repeat statements written by ADF.

It's frustrating to see a near artificial interest in women's weightlifting or swimming because of the presence of a trans woman, then watch that interest disappear without a trans woman's presence. If I asked who Missy Franklin is, 99% of responses would be incorrect. (She won the 200m NCAA Championship in 2022.)

It was frustrating to read comments last year to the effect of "Lia is going to destroy women's swimming." Last year, Lia won the 500 yard in 4:33. Katie Ledecky holds that record at 4:24.

The list goes on.
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My favorite media hysteria recently was the race where daily fail and others had headlines of “omg trans women places in top 2, third place woman refuses to attend medal ceremony in protest” and when the third place woman was finally contacted, she said “uh I left early because I wanted a beer and some food, what are you talking about”
 
I remember the hysteria over Laurel Hubbard in 2021.

When she didn't make the medal round, the buzz surrounding women's weightlifting that year immediately died. Laurel returned to NZ and relative obscurity.

Also, Lia Thomas returned to obscurity and also appears to be enjoying a mostly private life.
 
Sadly, and I’m irritated a bit with myself for having the opinion, but I don’t think pre-HRT, or recently-begun-HRT trans women should compete against cisgender women in organized athletics where the outcome matters. These women have so much stacked against them in society, and I hate to add to it, but it might be the sacrifice needed to somehow garner greater eventual acceptance by the wider population.

I say this as a man who has no direct skin in the game, but I just think of my experience playing pickup, rec leagues and charity tournaments. I played against some women who’d recently finished their college careers (only one was ever from a high-caliber team) when I was at my lowly best as a ~30yo guy. I was about 240lbs, powerlifting, though not especially skilled on the ice. I could, however, skate fast and shoot a hard wrister. I didn’t dominate the younger women who were fit, but I rarely if ever lost out to them on the ice, easily boxing them out, away from my stick side so I could still pass or shoot.

While in none of the games I played did it ever matter the ability or history of the players, in NCAA athletics, AAU, or the Olympics, it does matter. Trans women come in all shapes and sizes, and if she’s built anything even remotely similar to how I was in my pre-injuries life, the competition just doesn’t have a fair shot against her. Add in any sort of decent talent, and she might be unstoppable.

With all of that said, trans women built like me are an extremely edge case, and I expect that we all know it.
 
St. Clown said:
Sadly, and I’m irritated a bit with myself for having the opinion, but I don’t think pre-HRT, or recently-begun-HRT trans women should compete against cisgender women in organized athletics where the outcome matters. These women have so much stacked against them in society, and I hate to add to it, but it might be the sacrifice needed to somehow garner greater eventual acceptance by the wider population.

I say this as a man who has no direct skin in the game, but I just think of my experience playing pickup, rec leagues and charity tournaments. I played against some women who’d recently finished their college careers (only one was ever from a high-caliber team) when I was at my lowly best as a ~30yo guy. I was about 240lbs, powerlifting, though not especially skilled on the ice. I could, however, skate fast and shoot a hard wrister. I didn’t dominate the younger women who were fit, but I rarely if ever lost out to them on the ice, easily boxing them out, away from my stick side so I could still pass or shoot.

While in none of the games I played did it ever matter the ability or history of the players, in NCAA athletics, AAU, or the Olympics, it does matter. Trans women come in all shapes and sizes, and if she’s built anything even remotely similar to how I was in my pre-injuries life, the competition just doesn’t have a fair shot against her. Add in any sort of decent talent, and she might be unstoppable.

With all of that said, trans women built like me are an extremely edge case, and I expect that we all know it.
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The last sentence of your first paragraph, “These women have so much stacked against them in society, and I hate to add to it, but it might be the sacrifice needed to somehow garner greater eventual acceptance by the wider population”, seems unlikely to happen. Not to mention unnecessary​​​​​​. The trans community have suffered enough and sacrificed enough. You are likely a very accepting person, and a frequent ally of LGBTQ causes. If trans people are unable to get you behind their cause on this issue, to be accepted as equals to their cis counterparts, how do you expect those, who are far less accepting than you, to do so? It just seems implausible to me. If I were someone continuing to receive said sacrifices for my comfort and stability through my power, I’d keep my power rather than give it up and grant equality. Why not grant it now?
The main arguments against trans female inclusion (no one has an issue with trans males competing) clearly seem to be about competitiveness and having a chance at winning the respective competition for cis females. How either of those things outweighs the continued chronic negative outcomes, including and up to increased suicidality for trans female athletes, is still beyond me.
 
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