Ford Field Rink Installation

[Steve_MN]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

For starters, a reasonably and quality response. Worth continuing in conversation.

Why, thank you. I don't post a whole lot here, so when I do, I try not to be too incoherent.

I was not attempting to portray a prejudice against the city; rather, I was illustrating the logical pressure in favor of holding the sport's signature event in one of its flagship cities. 20 years between Frozen Fours in Michigan, when they being awarded to worthy but less significant venues like St. Louis, D.C. and Columbus is too long, and I think the powers-that-be understood this.

Definitely too long.

Rather, the issue is the lack of a quality venue in Detroit.

I disagree that nobody would have an issue with the Joe as a venue. It may not have caused the noise now heard about Ford Field, but Joe is one of the worst conceivable places for a Frozen Four. It has 20,000 seats, a nice sheet of ice, and the requisite number of locker rooms; in all other respects it is wholly inadequate to host the sport's flagship event. It looks terrible, it is in a back-corner location of Detroit near nothing, the concourses are dreadful, and it is not even beloved by the tradition-bleeding fans who populate it game after game. It would be a much-loathed disaster, the worst venue for a Frozen Four since Cincinnati. Nobody in their right mind would host it there.

I've only been going since 2004 in Boston, but even hearing "Cincinnati" in this context makes me shudder.

I guess I didn't realize that JLA was lacking to that degree.

This is often inaccurate, at least in regards to football stadia. Baseball stadiums do have shallow angles, but most football stadium angles are quite steep, and some (irrelevantly, in the SEC) are downright frightening. A number of college hockey venues, such as Mariucci and Yost, have steep seating angles themselves. However, modern NHL arenas are built with very shallow lower bowl angles--I remember visiting a friend 25 rows up center ice in Buffalo, and being disappointed that you could not see any ice over the glass--very low. The X is the same way. This is a reaction to the necessity of putting luxury boxes and a balcony over the seats without making them too high.

Ford Field does not have a tremendous angle of seating, but it is steeper than lower bowls of modern NHL arenas, and its seat construction has the advantage of not having luxury boxes to deal with in the seating deck structure.

Admittedly, it can be hard to tell from pictures, but with what's been posted on CCHA's website about getting the place set up, it sure looks to me like the seating is at a shallower angle than the lower bowl at the X. Being from the Minneapolis/St Paul area, I admit we're spoiled when it comes to quality hockey facilities

Another issue, that's been partially addressed earlier, is the angle of the seats relative to the playing surface as well. Looking at the seating chart I got in the mail, it looks like the section I'm in (104) is pointed such that, if I sit back in my seat and look straight ahead, I'll be looking AWAY from the ice. It sounds like the degree to which this is true isn't quite as bad as the graphic in the mail indicates, though, so we'll see.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are describing the typical outdoor game setup with the rink in the middle of the field, wide tracts of space separating the boards from the stands. They originally planned to do Ford Field the same way (which I objected to) but saw reason and rotated the ice to sit at a 90 degree angle across the field in one endzone. This puts one side of the ice and both goals very close to the seats, and while there is a little bit of space, it is partially filled in with shallow angle seats and partially mitigated by the elevation of those rows. The resulting actual viewing distance and angle, from pictures of the setup, appears to be <b>at worst</b> slightly less optimal than at a standard arena; at best, in the upper decks, at least as good. I suspect people will very pleasantly surprised with their views from the upper deck. This is part of what makes Ford Field so uniquely well suited for this.

To some extent this is true, but knowing they were doing it in the end zone I waited until I saw pictures of the setup to comment. Having seen the amount of space between the stands (other than temporary bleachers, which weren't in the pics I saw) and the walls of the rink, my initial concerns still stand.

The reviews from other football field games involve a seating situation that does not exist here, and thus have little application. For what it's worth, I sat in the upper deck of Spartan Stadium at the Cold War, and my view was great.

Fair enough. The only other place where this would be remotely feasible is the HHH, but we already know that the NCAA is perfectly happy using the fabulous hockey arena in the Cities for this event, so I don't see that happening. I want people to get the feel of great locations like that, too--unfortunately, those types of arenas do not exist in Detroit, at least not yet. Momentum appears to be building for a new downtown arena, and if one is built I have no doubt that the FF will be back in town and in the new arena.

NOOooooooooo not the Metrodump eeeeewwwww....

As far as the sightlines and everything, like we've said, I'll find out for sure Thursday evening. I plan on having my camera with me and wandering up to the cheap seats to get a feel for what things look like up there, as well as down in the lower level where the long-time fans tend to be.

I didn't include this in my previous post, but my biggest concern with holding the event in a football stadium in relation to getting new fans interested is that they'll show up to their first college hockey championship, perhaps even their first college hockey game, and leave thinking it was a nice experience being there, but never bother going to more games again because they can't see the action enough to get into the game itself. So, the game gets exposed to new people who walk away and never do anything more with it. That's probably almost worse than them not getting exposed in the first place.

My major point is that while I personally like the idea of expanding the event a bit and gaining wider attention (and If GravaLeast hadn't jumped on that whistle, Michigan would be there and it would be unreal), that is not the only reason Ford Field happened. It happened to include one of the three flagship states of college hockey in an event that had been gone in 20 years, and did so in the way that was least unattractive.

Oh definitely, they needed to figure out a way to get this back to Michigan. While my opinion on the teams from the state range from complete lack of caring to near hatred, it's absolutely ridiculous that it's been 20 years since the finals were held there.

Keep an open mind, and enjoy what you do get--a nice weekend in the nice area of Detroit on a dynamite weekend in a facility that, while ill-suited for hockey, is a great place to be. If you want to see what you could have gotten, make the trip to the JLA. Lament missing its sightlines, be thankful you don't have to use its restrooms.

Oh, I'm definitely willing to be proven wrong, and, truth be told, I hope I AM wrong. I don't want to be spending a weekend in crappy seating in a dead environment for this, I want there to be some excitement and be able to enjoy the games.

 

[STATEdude3]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

This will be about the most extreme angle view in the lower bowl...

http://www.ccha.com/assets/1/workflow_staging/Photos/600x450/16906.JPG

 

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I guess I didn't realize that JLA was lacking to that degree.

When visiting a group of Michigan fans at the X, one of the most knowledgeable ones who had been watching hockey the longest remarked, unprompted, "Detroit needs an arena like this." The X puts you further away from the action than the Joe, no question, but the quality is a worthwhile tradeoff. The Red Wings are seriously considering playing an hour away at the Palace, where they would have to share time with the Pistons--that's how much it needs replacing.

Admittedly, it can be hard to tell from pictures, but with what's been posted on CCHA's website about getting the place set up, it sure looks to me like the seating is at a shallower angle than the lower bowl at the X. Being from the Minneapolis/St Paul area, I admit we're spoiled when it comes to quality hockey facilities

Another issue, that's been partially addressed earlier, is the angle of the seats relative to the playing surface as well. Looking at the seating chart I got in the mail, it looks like the section I'm in (104) is pointed such that, if I sit back in my seat and look straight ahead, I'll be looking AWAY from the ice. It sounds like the degree to which this is true isn't quite as bad as the graphic in the mail indicates, though, so we'll see.

In my zeal to argue in favor of Ford Field I should not give the impression that it will somehow be better to watch a game in than a dedicated hockey arena; obviously the seats are not designed for it. I guess my argument, in response to the foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol by some Ford Field opposers, is that it won't be bad. Not every seat will be perfectly placed, but the view available is still good and the inconvenience for most will be small. There are college hockey arenas with seat angles and sightlines that are just as awkward. Yost, for example, has seats in the high corners that point at the press box and feel about eight miles from the ice. It is my opinion that it should not significantly take away from one's ability to enjoy the games unless one focuses on it.

To some extent this is true, but knowing they were doing it in the end zone I waited until I saw pictures of the setup to comment. Having seen the amount of space between the stands (other than temporary bleachers, which weren't in the pics I saw) and the walls of the rink, my initial concerns still stand.

The front row won't be fabulous, though hopefully there will still be a decent view of the action. As the rows run higher the view rapidly improves, with the slight mitigating advantage that you have less trouble looking over the person in front of you.

As far as the sightlines and everything, like we've said, I'll find out for sure Thursday evening. I plan on having my camera with me and wandering up to the cheap seats to get a feel for what things look like up there, as well as down in the lower level where the long-time fans tend to be.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the upper deck. In 2003 I attended a Lions-Broncos game in Denver with my wife on our honeymoon, and we sat in the second row of the upper deck. Later that year I saw the Lions and Chargers at Ford Field, and my seat in the last row of the upper deck was at least as close to the field as those second row seats in Denver.

I didn't include this in my previous post, but my biggest concern with holding the event in a football stadium in relation to getting new fans interested is that they'll show up to their first college hockey championship, perhaps even their first college hockey game, and leave thinking it was a nice experience being there, but never bother going to more games again because they can't see the action enough to get into the game itself. So, the game gets exposed to new people who walk away and never do anything more with it. That's probably almost worse than them not getting exposed in the first place.

Fair point. The optimistic view is that the place will be well attended and the different fanbases will make noise and it will be a spectacle. If a local team had made it there certainly would have been a larger chance for this scenario. Of course, the problem with events like this is that you don't get that home arena atmosphere unless you have a home team at the event, and things wind up neutral-site tame.

It is a sensible critique to suggest that some level of success of this event was dependent on either Michigan or Michigan State making the Frozen Four. Obviously if either had been in Detroit the place would be packed and the local attention would be unbelievable. I still think it will be a good event, and with the additional bonus of opening day happening that weekend, it will be a great time to be in Detroit, but it will be hard not to notice that Michigan could have sold out the whole place on its own if it had been there.

I wish I could be there.

 

[Steve_MN]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

This will be about the most extreme angle view in the lower bowl...

http://www.ccha.com/assets/1/workflow_staging/Photos/600x450/16906.JPG

If I read the chart right, I think I'm 2 sections to the left of that, so I hope it won't be too bad.

On the flip side, if I had THAT seat to watch the game from, I'd be marching to the box office and demanding my money back. Having to turn 45+ degrees in your seat just to be facing the surface? You've GOT to be kidding me.

 

[chickod]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

So it's not the city that's the problem, it's the venue.

Amen...

 

[MUhawks628]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

and it is not even beloved by the tradition-bleeding fans who populate it game after game.

Great post, but that is simply not true. Maybe one very knowledgeable Detroit fan you were sitting with dislikes the JLA but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of fans will be devastated to see the Wings leave for the Palace or Cobo.

That isn't to say the Joe is not falling apart, and is in need of some serious work. Just clarifying the general feeling towards the place.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Great post, but that is simply not true. Maybe one very knowledgeable Detroit fan you were sitting with dislikes the JLA but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of fans will be devastated to see the Wings leave for the Palace or Cobo.

That isn't to say the Joe is not falling apart, and is in need of some serious work. Just clarifying the general feeling towards the place.

I went to the Joe for the first time this year, the GLI to be exact. Honestly, it was the most antiquated, out of date, dingy arena I've ever been to. The best thing to do to it is just implode it. I'm not a fan of Detroit, but as an outsider, I would hope that they would be able to build a new arena close to Ford Field and Comerica. I don't think it is a viable option for them to move to the Palace or anywhere else.

 

[MUhawks628]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I went to the Joe for the first time this year, the GLI to be exact. Honestly, it was the most antiquated, out of date, dingy arena I've ever been to. The best thing to do to it is just implode it. I'm not a fan of Detroit, but as an outsider, I would hope that they would be able to build a new arena close to Ford Field and Comerica. I don't think it is a viable option for them to move to the Palace or anywhere else.

Haha, well fair enough . With the way Illitch was dropping payroll for the Tigers this off season, the state of the economy, and it just being Detroit/Michigan in general it would seem unlikely that the money is there to build a new arena. I would much rather see them stay at the Joe then share the Palace with the Pistons (talk about a characterless arena). But I'm sentimental when it comes to the place.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Haha, well fair enough . With the way Illitch was dropping payroll for the Tigers this off season, the state of the economy, and it just being Detroit/Michigan in general it would seem unlikely that the money is there to build a new arena. I would much rather see them stay at the Joe then share the Palace with the Pistons (talk about a characterless arena). But I'm sentimental when it comes to the place.

I don't expect a new arena to be built for the Wings any time soon because of what you said here. Money. I highly doubt anyone in Detroit has the Red Wings new arena at the top of their priorities right now. I agree on the palace, even though I have never been there, but being from MN, I imagine it would be like hockey in the Target Center. Maybe the Wings can just play at Ford Field.

 

[Clifton]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I don't expect a new arena to be built for the Wings any time soon because of what you said here. Money. I highly doubt anyone in Detroit has the Red Wings new arena at the top of their priorities right now. I agree on the palace, even though I have never been there, but being from MN, I imagine it would be like hockey in the Target Center. Maybe the Wings can just play at Ford Field.

From what I've heard about the Target Center, the Palace is better than that for hockey; the Palace was built with hockey sightlines in mind, but not as the primary focus.

As far as the Wings go, there are some crazy ideas floating around right now. Remarkably, they're not all that crazy when you sit down and think it through. The most comprehensive one:
1. The Wings move to the Palace for 2-4 years.
2. Mike Illitch buys the Palace, the Pistons, or both (not so farfetched when you realize that Illitch just hired the man who was responsible for the construction fo the Palace).
3. A new sports-only arena gets built downtown (a mystery buyer has been gobbling up land in the area around the Fox Theater)
4. The Wings AND Pistons move into the new arena.
5. The Palace becomes a concert-only venue.

 

[STATEdude3]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Illitch would never move his team to The Palace, even for a short period of time. They need to look into The Palace for the sake of sound business management but think about this...

Illitch's headquarters are located downtown, and so is his flagship restaurant. Most importantly he owns 23 parking lots and 2 ramps downtown that would now go unused for 41 nights a year (55ish if you include playoffs). Illitch has great relations with the city government (too good if you ask me) and if he wants to extend his lease at The Joe for a couple years while a new arena is constructed, he will certainly have that opportunity.

As much land as he owns behind The Fox Theater, I dont think a rink will go there. From an urban design proposal, those streets (Clifford/Cass/Park) are extremely important for flow of vehicles out of downtown on event nights. It is unlikely that the city would allow one or more of them to be blocked off. The more likely option would be a new rink just North of I75, along Woodward Avenue, right across from the Crosswinds Condos.

I live on Adams St. between Woodward and Park ave, and this is the discussions going around our building and the business owners in the area. I'm not an expert on development, but I do follow the happenings in this neighborhood.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Illitch would never move his team to The Palace, even for a short period of time. They need to look into The Palace for the sake of sound business management but think about this...

Illitch's headquarters are located downtown, and so is his flagship restaurant. Most importantly he owns 23 parking lots and 2 ramps downtown that would now go unused for 41 nights a year (55ish if you include playoffs). Illitch has great relations with the city government (too good if you ask me) and if he wants to extend his lease at The Joe for a couple years while a new arena is constructed, he will certainly have that opportunity.

As much land as he owns behind The Fox Theater, I dont think a rink will go there. From an urban design proposal, those streets (Clifford/Cass/Park) are extremely important for flow of vehicles out of downtown on event nights. It is unlikely that the city would allow one or more of them to be blocked off. The more likely option would be a new rink just North of I75, along Woodward Avenue, right across from the Crosswinds Condos.

I live on Adams St. between Woodward and Park ave, and this is the discussions going around our building and the business owners in the area. I'm not an expert on development, but I do follow the happenings in this neighborhood.

A hockey rink footprint is pretty small isn't it? Would Clifford/Columbia/Park/Adams be big enough? it seems like it would be close enough that if you had to shift Clifford to the west a bit to get a big enough footprint you could...

 

[STATEdude3]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

A hockey rink footprint is pretty small isn't it? Would Clifford/Columbia/Park/Adams be big enough? it seems like it would be close enough that if you had to shift Clifford to the west a bit to get a big enough footprint you could...

Possibly, if it went up against Grand River...but I would be concerned with the costs of rerouting streets and underground utilities, when there are massive plots of land available in an equally ideal location that is already city owned/illitch operated that would not require this. In addition, there needs to be a link between downtown and the midtown neighborhood that starts around Charlotte St. This could help spur development between Woodward and the Cass Corridor in that direction.

 

[JD Doe]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Found a video called "Testing the Ice with the Media All-Star Game" on the CCHA site. It shows what appears to be the finished product...

http://www.ccha.com/multimedia/?VideoId=146

So did they decide to not put any type of curtain up behind risers 01 through 05?... and speaking of those riser seats, I was expecting a bit more of an incline to those riser seats.

We are sitting in Riser 01 about 30 or so rows up. At least from the video, the players may have more on an incline to walk to get to the locker room than I will getting up to my row.

The .59 second mark of the video shows the big picture.

Maybe we will have short people (or no people) sitting in front of us.

 

[Chris_NH]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Detroit seems to tear down and build arenas/stadiums as though it's a little cottage industry unto itself.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Found a video called "Testing the Ice with the Media All-Star Game" on the CCHA site. It shows what appears to be the finished product...

http://www.ccha.com/multimedia/?VideoId=146

So did they decide to not put any type of curtain up behind risers 01 through 05?... and speaking of those riser seats, I was expecting a bit more of an incline to those riser seats.

We are sitting in Riser 01 about 30 or so rows up. At least from the video, the players may have more on an incline to walk to get to the locker room than I will getting up to my row.

The .59 second mark of the video shows the big picture.

Maybe we will have short people (or no people) sitting in front of us.

If I had to take a guess, maybe there's some sort of pneumatic device that will jack the risers up to more of an angle?

 

[blockski]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Illitch would never move his team to The Palace, even for a short period of time. They need to look into The Palace for the sake of sound business management but think about this...

Well, not unless he wants to buy the Pistons.

Illitch's headquarters are located downtown, and so is his flagship restaurant. Most importantly he owns 23 parking lots and 2 ramps downtown that would now go unused for 41 nights a year (55ish if you include playoffs). Illitch has great relations with the city government (too good if you ask me) and if he wants to extend his lease at The Joe for a couple years while a new arena is constructed, he will certainly have that opportunity.

As much land as he owns behind The Fox Theater, I dont think a rink will go there. From an urban design proposal, those streets (Clifford/Cass/Park) are extremely important for flow of vehicles out of downtown on event nights. It is unlikely that the city would allow one or more of them to be blocked off. The more likely option would be a new rink just North of I75, along Woodward Avenue, right across from the Crosswinds Condos.

I live on Adams St. between Woodward and Park ave, and this is the discussions going around our building and the business owners in the area. I'm not an expert on development, but I do follow the happenings in this neighborhood.

I worked on an urban design project for exactly this issue back in Grad School. The best solution we came up with was to push the arena all the way up against Grand River - you'd have to close Columbia Street, but you'd then be able to have a big enough footprint for the arena there, and Illitch can develop all the land he owns between Cass and Woodward.

Which building are you in on Adams? Some cool renovations there.

Possibly, if it went up against Grand River...but I would be concerned with the costs of rerouting streets and underground utilities, when there are massive plots of land available in an equally ideal location that is already city owned/illitch operated that would not require this. In addition, there needs to be a link between downtown and the midtown neighborhood that starts around Charlotte St. This could help spur development between Woodward and the Cass Corridor in that direction.

An arena alone won't be a big enough link up and down Woodward. For one, Woodward has enough anchors for activity between downtown, the Max Fisher Music Center, Wayne State, DIA, and New Center. That's all within the scope of the light rail line plan, which will do a far better job to link those destinations than just an arena.

Instead, arenas are nodes for people to walk to and from - and the Woodward corridor is too far to walk alone (hence the need for light rail) - but downtown is not. Pushing the arena up against Grand River allows for a walkable connection either to the MGM or to the Fox Theater area, and in turn Greektown, etc.

At least, that's my thought.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I worked on an urban design project for exactly this issue back in Grad School. The best solution we came up with was to push the arena all the way up against Grand River - you'd have to close Columbia Street, but you'd then be able to have a big enough footprint for the arena there, and Illitch can develop all the land he owns between Cass and Woodward.

So you're talking about Grand River, 2nd Ave, Fisher Fwy, Cass Ave and Elizabeth St?

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Looking at the google map, I was expecting Bookie's Bar and Grill, which borders the area that Blockski mentioned, to be a run down ****hole dive bar. I go to streetview and it is a nice looking, new brick building sitting by itself in a sea of parking lots. Maybe the owner is banking on an arena getting put there, because he would have a prime location if it happened.

 

[STATEdude3]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Looking at the google map, I was expecting Bookie's Bar and Grill, which borders the area that Blockski mentioned, to be a run down ****hole dive bar. I go to streetview and it is a nice looking, new brick building sitting by itself in a sea of parking lots. Maybe the owner is banking on an arena getting put there, because he would have a prime location if it happened.

In Detroit you can never judge an establishment on its surroundings, or even the building that it is in. Our greatest treasures are hidden in places that you would not dream of entering. "Don't judge a book by its cover" is the way to really get to know Detroit.