Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

So can we call them the UND Fighting Floodwaters yet? Green and Pink Tide, if you must

 

[brianvf]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Am I wrong?

I thought that Ralph Englstad said if the Fighting Sioux name changes they lose the arena.

You are incorrect.
The arena mgmt was asked this a few years ago and said that it was not the case. The arena will remain regardless of the nickname.

If the name goes away will Happy still refer to the UND team as the Sue, thereby continuing to dishonor both the NA's he is trying to protect and people named Sue (because it is associated with a word deemed inappropriate)?

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Am I wrong?

You're wrong.

 

[markwojo]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

So when do North and South Dakota have to change their state names, or are the Dakota Indians not offended by the unautorized use of their name? If Illinois was so worked up about the school's use of Fighting Illini, why is the state allowed to use a derivitive of the tribe name for the state name? I can't believe we waste tax payer money dealing with these types of issues and don;t tell retarded people that have an issue with long standing names of schools and or mascots to go pound sand.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

What Spirit Lake did or didn't do and how they accomplished it is irrelevant.

It is completely relevant because if there's going to be a lasting solution to the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, it has to be what the Sioux tribes want.

Not what you want. Not what I want. Not what UND fans want. Not what anyone in state government wants.

If the support from Spirit Lake and Standing Rock isn't deep, genuine and unconditional, then the issue will continue to fester.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

So when do North and South Dakota have to change their state names, or are the Dakota Indians not offended by the unautorized use of their name?

I've wondered that myself. Because even if you get rid of the word "Sioux," the word "Dakota" remains. The great irony is that "Dakota" is an American Indian word while "Sioux" isn't.

 

[Dirty]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

But how is the method in which Spirit Lake approved the name relevant to how Standing Rock approves the name? They are two different groups and evidently are resolving this issue in two different ways. If it's about what the Sioux tribes want, how about the SBoHE waits until they hear this before retiring the name.

Why are we even arguing?

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

So can we call them the UND Fighting Floodwaters yet? Green and Pink Tide, if you must

Ragin' Reds

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[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

But how is the method in which Spirit Lake approved the name relevant to how Standing Rock approves the name?

Because you seem to think that the issue can't be resolved without the State Board of Higher Education doing something. What Spirit Lake did proves that's not true.

If Standing Rock wanted more time to negotiate, the tribal council could pass a resolution of support for UND's use of the nickname that satisfied the NCAA settlement. That would take the settlement deadline off the table. It would also put a great deal of pressure on the board to seriously negotiate.

When Ron His Horse Is Thunder last appeared at a board meeting, he said that him losing the election wouldn't necessarily change the makeup of the tribal council enough to swing support in favor of the nickname. The tribal chairman votes only in the case of a tie.

Based on what I'm hearing from Murphy, the new tribal chair, the scenario His Horse Is Thunder outlined may well have come to pass. If there aren't enough votes on the council to get a resolution passed or to authorize a referendum on the issue, where are you?

Why are we even arguing? Besides that it's fun.

What other reason is there?

 

[Dirty]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Because you seem to think that the issue can't be resolved without the State Board of Higher Education doing something. What Spirit Lake did proves that's not true.

It obviously is possible but if necessary the SBoHE should try doing something. To me they don't appear to be doing anything though. I mean seriously, what the hell is even going on? No one says anything. Even if the name has to be dropped, it would be nice if it seemed like the SBoHE was actually trying to do something to save it. It just doesn't seem that way though.

A couple days ago didn't Charles Murphy say that he's willing to negotiate if the timetable is removed? Has the SBoHE really had any sort of response to this? Not some waffling, namby-pamby, which way is the wind blowing quotes, but an actual response? It sure doesn't seem like it and it seems like they never do. If the SBoHE is actually trying to save the name, do something. If the tribes refuse to do anything, then say something. Show that they care. Seemingly doing nothing gives the perception that they really don't care. Maybe I'm completely wrong though.

 

[Flashy Man]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

You are incorrect.
The arena mgmt was asked this a few years ago and said that it was not the case. The arena will remain regardless of the nickname.

Actually what I heard was that the details of the contract are locked underground in Uncle Ralph's vault. It's too be opened by Geraldo Rivera on a TV special should the name of the Fighting Sioux have to be changed.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaCX0hreCwk


Again, forgive my ignorance of the details of the fight in ND. But based on what I've been reading here and elsewhere, this matter h as become entirely too complicated. Tribal resolutions, NC$$ agreements, state bureaucrats' indecision, etc. etc. To me, it's a simple matter: either the word Sioux is in the public domain or it's not. If it is, then the university is free to use it. If it's not, then we need some understanding of why not. We need some referencing of the law or court decision that carved out an exception to the First Amendment.

FSU is to me the model here. They went right to the mattresses, got the Seminoles in line and just slam dunked the NC$$, which immediately found some FSU "exceptions" to its initial ruling against Indian names, mascots, etc.

I think as much as anything the use of the terms "hostile" and "abusive" is both innacurate and insulting. Why UND doesn't even have a mascot, just a name and a service mark. And take a look at the video from Illinois and tell me in honesty that what's portrayed there is either "hostile" or "abusive." "Old fashioned," perhaps, "out of step with today's sensitivities," possibly "not reflective of the image we wish to portray" maybe. But "hostile" and "abusive?" Not a chance.

All the NC$$ is doing here is diminishing the rich history of college athletics in the name of achieving some sort of unobtainable squaring of history with current politics. And no native american will benefit from this effort one iota.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

It obviously is possible but if necessary the SBoHE should try doing something.

What, exactly, should the board do? If some type of deal is negotiated that pays off the tribe or sets certain conditions for UND's continued use of the name, how long will it be before the amount isn't enough? Or someone claims that UND isn't living up to its end of the deal? Or that's it's characterized as a bribe? Or another tribal council rescinds the deal? Or there's another racial incident (real or imagined) on campus that starts the whole thing up again?

The State Board of Higher Education's goal is a long-term solution. Back in September, (actually, Oct. 1) board chair Richie Smith said what that had to be: a 30-year legally binding agreement under which the tribes gave up sovereign immunity and a federal court waiver. And he said the tribes had to show some willingess to go that direction by the end of October.

Funny that back then, many thought the board was doing the right thing in trying to light a fire under the tribes by setting a strict deadline. But now that the first deadline has passed and Standing Rock is stuck in neutral, the big, bad board is a clueless bully.

And, again, if there aren't enough votes on the Standing Rock Tribal Council to pass a resolution that satisfies the NCAA, what can the board do that tribal chairman Charles Murphy can't?

 

[burd]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The State Board of Higher Education's goal is a long-term solution. Back in September, board chair Richie Smith said what that had to be: a 30-year legally binding agreement under which the tribes gave up sovereign immunity

What do you mean "gave up sovereign immunity?"

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

What do you mean "gave up sovereign immunity?"

This is what State Board of Higher Education chairman Richie Smith said at an Oct. 1 news conference:

"On the board, we feel that we need at least a 30-year binding commitment that would probably include a waiver of sovereign immunity and federal jurisdiction, and a binding document so the university knows it has a commitment for 30 years."

I'm no lawyer (Smith is), but I assume it means that relative to the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, what the board doesn't want is for the tribes to attempt to get out of the agreement at some point by challenging it in the tribal or federal courts.

Smith also said that day:

"The intent of the board is that 60 days from today, we're done with this issue."

 

[burd]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

This is what State Board of Higher Education chairman Richie Smith said at an Oct. 1 news conference:



I'm no lawyer (Smith is), but I assume it means that relative to the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, what the board doesn't want is for the tribes to attempt to get out of the agreement at some point by challenging it in the tribal or federal courts.

Smith also said that day:

Thanks, PCM. I knew you would respond in a useful manner.

 

[Siouxfaninseattle]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The State Board of Higher Education's goal is a long-term solution. Back in September, (actually, Oct. 1) board chair Richie Smith said what that had to be: a 30-year legally binding agreement under which the tribes gave up sovereign immunity and a federal court waiver. And he said the tribes had to show some willingess to go that direction by the end of October.

I'm afraid the board's goal is to get rid of the nickname. Period.

 

[VarsityWisconsin]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

That would be funny.

 

[Goon]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The new Standing Rock tribal leader, Charles Murphy, appears to have had a change of heart. The name is no longer a priority.

Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?

 

[Goon]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I'm afraid the board's goal is to get rid of the nickname. Period.

It does appear that way sometimes.