Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

[cross cheque]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The house Kupchella never lived in because it wasn't finished before he retired as UND president?

While I understand that people have reasons for not liking Kupchella, losing the Fighting Sioux nickname shouldn't one of them.

I never said he lived in that house although he should be buried UNDerneath it. Why shouldn't he be part of the blame? He was more stagnant than the State Board, all he wanted was the retirement benies he didn't care about the people who love this University and it's tradition.

 

[state of hockey]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Wait, so UND had a president that was almost exactly like every other college or university's?

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I never said he lived in that house although he should be buried UNDerneath it. Why shouldn't he be part of the blame? He was more stagnant than the State Board, all he wanted was the retirement benies he didn't care about the people who love this University and it's tradition.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Answer these questions:

1. Who is most responsible for initiating the development of UND's current Fighting Sioux logo? (Hint: It wasn't Ralph Engelstad.)

2. Who went on national TV and radio to defend UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname?

3. Who got the NCAA to drop its demand that Engelstad Arena cover up all the Fighting Sioux logos and references for the 2006 West Regional at UND?

4. Who went on the offensive against the NCAA and attempted to state UND's case to the organization's members?

5. Who urged the State Board of Higher Education to appeal the NCAA's decision to put UND on its "hostile and abusive" list?

6. When the appeal failed, who led the effort to sue the NCAA?

7. Who worked to bring tribal leaders to UND to discuss the nickname issue and show them exactly what happened at athletic events? Who tried to get the NCAA to do the same thing?

8. Finally, why did the anti-nickname groups at UND dislike Kupchella so much?

You might want to do a little reading before commenting further.

UND President Continues Search For A Nickname Solution

Charles Kupchella: UND's Surprising Nickname Warrior

North Dakota Takes NCAA To Court Over 'Sioux' Name

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

On the radio this morning, I heard Grant Shaft, a North Dakota State Board of Higher Education member, talk about the Fighting Sioux nickname issue. He's an attorney from Grand Forks and tends to lean toward the pro-nickname side.

Shaft said that the pressure for a deadline shorter than what the NCAA settlement calls for is coming from UND athletics, which wants the the issue settled before the end of the year. He said it has to do with UND being admitted to the Summit Conference and future scheduling.

So it's not really the board driving the deadline. It's UND.

Shaft said that he would be willing to work with the Standing Rock Tribal Council through December if that's what it took to get some sort of agreement. However, he also said that if nothing concrete came from discussions with the tribe, it would be "problematic for some boad members."

 

[Flashy Man]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I would like to be the first to welcome the University of North Dakota Undies

 

[Siouxfaninseattle]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I sure didn't see this coming. This article was posted a little while ago on the GF Herald website.


The State Board of Higher Education is being told by a district judge that it may not retire UND’s Fighting Sioux nickname until a hearing Dec. 9.

The temporary restraining order, dated Monday, came from Judge Michael G. Sturdevant of Bottineau, N.D., as part of a lawsuit against the board brought forward by the Committee For Understanding and Respect, a group of Spirit Lake nation nickname supporters.

The group’s spokeswoman, Eunice Davidson, said 67 percent of the voters on her reservation agreed to keep the name in a vote earlier this year and felt the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe should be given an opportunity to do the same.

The complaint that sets off the lawsuit argues that the tribes are the owners of the nickname and the state board is merely a trustee, and, therefore, can’t decide to end use of the nickname on its own.

Word of the lawsuit reached the Herald late Monday night and there wasn’t an opportunity to show any state board members the relevant documents.

Tribes in charge

The complaint that sets off the lawsuit takes issue with the way the state board unilaterally changed the deadline, contrary to a settlement between the state and the NCAA.

The NCAA considers American Indian nicknames offensive and the settlement gives UND until Nov. 30, 2010, to win the support of both the state’s Sioux tribes.

But the state board moved the deadline forward to Oct. 31 of this year. If the Standing Rock chairman doesn’t state his intent to move forward with a referendum at the reservation, it appeared the board could enforce that deadline and direct UND to retire the nickname at its Nov. 19 meeting.

But in doing so, the board would be ignoring the rights of the Sioux people, as stated in the NCAA settlement, according to the complaint.

The NCAA settlement says the Sioux tribes “have important contributions in determining whether, to what extent and in what manner the ‘Sioux’ name and the ‘Fighting Sioux’ nickname or logo should continue to be used.”

The complaint interprets that to mean that “the SBHE has become the ‘trustee’ of the nickname and logo for the Sioux People of North Dakota.” In other words, the tribes own the nickname and the state board is only holding on to it until the tribes can decide what to do with the nickname.

Nickname supporters said in the complaint that “the plaintiffs are bringing this action because they strongly believe to lose… this identification with North Dakota’s oldest institution of higher education will cause isolation and diminishing of public interest, knowledge and respect for Sioux history and culture and will be detrimental and not in the best interest of their people.”

The complaint says the supporters are not seeking monetary damages.

Nickname supporters also said the 30-year agreement for use of the nickname the state board wants from each tribe is not in the NCAA settlement. They’re asking the court to order the board to back off that requirement.

In other news

In the meantime, as the state board’s deadline approaches, Chancellor Bill Goetz has sent a letter to Standing Rock Chairman Charles W. Murphy seeking a meeting with him to talk about the nickname.

When the letter was sent out Friday, the state board was still working under the assumption that it needed a statement of intent from Murphy that he would try to hold a nickname referendum on the reservation. Without that, the board would’ve been bound by its own stated deadline to ask UND to retire the nickname.

The Tribal Council met Monday and will meet again today, but Murphy told the Herald there has been no discussion of the nickname and he doesn't know that there will be any this week. He noted that he'd already written a letter to the state board about the matter and hasn't heard back.

Asked if he needed to hear back before he'd broach the subject with the council, he replied that that was the case.

State Board member Grant Shaft said Goetz’ letter may not have reached Murphy's desk yet.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

SFiS:

That. Is. Awesome.

* those guys. Keep the Sioux name!

 

[Roben]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I agree...that is pretty sweet, however, this could be drug out another year...not something I'm looking forward to. It's about time some people stepped up in support of the name.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The complaint that sets off the lawsuit argues that the tribes are the owners of the nickname and the state board is merely a trustee, and, therefore, can’t decide to end use of the nickname on its own.

Be careful of what you wish for. If you accept that the tribes legally own UND's trademarked nickname and can dictate the terms under which the name is retained or dropped, you're giving them an immense amount of power and control. Based on experience, I don't see how that's necessarily a positive development.

 

[cross cheque]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Answer these questions:

1. Who is most responsible for initiating the development of UND's current Fighting Sioux logo? (Hint: It wasn't Ralph Engelstad.)

2. Who went on national TV and radio to defend UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname?

3. Who got the NCAA to drop its demand that Engelstad Arena cover up all the Fighting Sioux logos and references for the 2006 West Regional at UND?

4. Who went on the offensive against the NCAA and attempted to state UND's case to the organization's members?

5. Who urged the State Board of Higher Education to appeal the NCAA's decision to put UND on its "hostile and abusive" list?

6. When the appeal failed, who led the effort to sue the NCAA?

7. Who worked to bring tribal leaders to UND to discuss the nickname issue and show them exactly what happened at athletic events? Who tried to get the NCAA to do the same thing?

8. Finally, why did the anti-nickname groups at UND dislike Kupchella so much?

You might want to do a little reading before commenting further.

UND President Continues Search For A Nickname Solution

Charles Kupchella: UND's Surprising Nickname Warrior

North Dakota Takes NCAA To Court Over 'Sioux' Name

1. C.K. didn't do this by himself so you can't give him credit, it was an action that gave the logo positive credibility.

2. C.K. defended the use of the nickname at the University that signs his checks, i wouldn't expect any less.

3. The lawyers that were hired by the University board. What? did you think C.K. marched up to the headquarters in Indianapolis and started protesting?

4. I could keep going but Sam Lofquist just quit the gophers and my attention has been diverted, plus arguing with a communications major could potentially make me an underachiever.....

 

[gophers79]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

You cant have it ok for Florida State but not UND. If UND has to change then so should all of the schools that have indian nicknames.

The whole thing has to do with the NC$$. They would never upset a school that brings in as much $ as does Florida State. If they really cared about this stuff, they'd go after Notre Dame. "Fighting Irish" is in the same league as Seminoles / Fighting Illini / Fighting Sioux imho, but because the domers always bring the NC$$ tons of money come bowl season they'll let that one slide.

Typical hypocrisy from the NC$$

 

[stickboy1956]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Be careful of what you wish for. If you accept that the tribes legally own UND's trademarked nickname and can dictate the terms under which the name is retained or dropped, you're giving them an immense amount of power and control. Based on experience, I don't see how that's necessarily a positive development.

The alternative is some goofy nickname that has little/no merchandising value.

I'm all for giving the tribes a considerable share of the Fighting Sioux merchandising pot as long as UND can use the name.

 

[Goon]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The alternative is some goofy nickname that has little/no merchandising value.

I'm all for giving the tribes a considerable share of the Fighting Sioux merchandising pot as long as UND can use the name.

Has anyone offered the tribes a share of the merchandising money?

 

[Siouxfaninseattle]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Be careful of what you wish for. If you accept that the tribes legally own UND's trademarked nickname and can dictate the terms under which the name is retained or dropped, you're giving them an immense amount of power and control. Based on experience, I don't see how that's necessarily a positive development.

I don't accept the tribes' ownership of the nickname. I doubt that the court will accept it either. Quite frankly, I was looking forward to the resolution of this issue, and thought it would be behind us by the end of the year. This lawsuit guarantees that even the drop-dead date of November, 2010, looks shaky.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

1. C.K. didn't do this by himself so you can't give him credit, it was an action that gave the logo positive credibility.

I didn't say he did it by himself. But when Ralph Engelstad pushed the idea of returning to the old Chicago Blackhawks logo, it was Kupchella who insisted that UND needed a logo that was more dignified and less "cartoony." Thus, UND went with the current logo designed by Bennett Brien, an American Indian artist and UND alum. You're right that it gave the logo more credibility, which means that rather than scapegoating Kupchella, you should thank him for not going along with the idea of re-adopting the Blackhawks logo.

2. C.K. defended the use of the nickname at the University that signs his checks, i wouldn't expect any less.

So after saying earlier in this thread that Kupchella was "stagnant" on the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, you're changing your story to say that he had no choice but to defend the nickname? Nice reverse spin. Andre Agassi would be impressed.

3. The lawyers that were hired by the University board. What? did you think C.K. marched up to the headquarters in Indianapolis and started protesting?

Wrong on all points. Kupchella wrote an open letter to the NCAA which you can read here. Because you obviously never read anything from the links I previously posted, I'll quote the relevant paragraph from Kupchella's letter:

Concerning tournaments already scheduled: Is the NCAA taking the position that it can actually unilaterally modify a contract already made? Perhaps the charge (sometimes heard) that the NCAA exhibits too much of the arrogance that comes from its status as a monopoly – apart from the question of whether it’s an effective organization – does indeed have a basis.

The NCAA backed off on its demand that all the Sioux logos and references be covered in Engelstad Arena for the 2006 West Regional long before North Dakota took the NCAA to court. Obviously, the NCAA's lawyers decided that Kupchella was right.

4. I could keep going but Sam Lofquist just quit the gophers and my attention has been diverted, plus arguing with a communications major could potentially make me an underachiever.....

Then perhaps you should go find a communications major to argue with because you're clearly out of your depth arguing with me.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

The alternative is some goofy nickname that has little/no merchandising value.

I agree that losing the Fighting Sioux name and logo would be a huge loss to UND in terms of name recognition and merchandising value. I won't assume that a replacement name would automatically be "goofy," although I don't deny that the potential exists.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I don't accept the tribes' ownership of the nickname. I doubt that the court will accept it either.

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but the legal rationale behind this maneuver appears rather dubious to me. It'll be interesting to see what where it ends up.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I've heard Pres. Kupchella defend, and explain his defense, of the logo.

All I've heard from Pres. Kelley and AD Faison is either the sound of silence or "we just need a resolution of the matter" (not saying one way or the other).

 

[cross cheque]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

Then perhaps you should go find a communications major to argue with because you're clearly out of your depth arguing with me.[/QUOTE]

I'm out of my league against a photographer/computer gamer? I'll watch out for any world of warcraft spells you cast on me leroy jenkins.

 

[PCM]

Re: Fighting Sioux name may change - Murphy's law

I'm out of my league against a photographer/computer gamer? I'll watch out for any world of warcraft spells you cast on me leroy jenkins.

Sorry. I've never played World of Warcraft. Wrong again.

Would you care to actually defend your claim that Kupchella was "stagnant" on the nickname issue or are you simply going to continue making juvenile school yard taunts?