Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

[Old Pio]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

According to the NY Daily News, this latest crackpot may have gotten on the plane in Amsterdam without a passport. If he did, the security in Amsterdam is fully at fault. He used his regular passport to get from Nigeria to Amsterdam.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/12/28/2009-12-28_did_he_board_without_a_passport.html

If true, that would be most disturbing. Still, he was carrying a valid US entry visa and had not been placed on the no fly list, despite his father's efforts to give us a heads up. Remember, his father is a major figure in Nigeria, and one would expect our embassy personnel not to blow him off.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

You know, considering I'm more likely to die by having a vending machine fall on me than in a terrorist attack, I'll take the risk if it means I don't need to be strip searched every time I fly.

I'm not a violent felon, the only mark on my record is a single speeding ticket; I really get annoyed being treated like one at the airport. And no, just because I have nothing to hide doesn't make it ok.

Cripes, the security hounds are worse than soccer moms.

I'm in general agreement here. These "security" measures are, to me, more public relations than anything else. You haven't heard me comment on whether passengers should be kept from the loo for the last hour of a flight (a regulation that would cause me to invest in a motorman's friend!). That is a separate issue from Secretary Napolitano's initial assertion that what happened here was "a success."

For whatever reason, some Americans are unwilling or unable to face up to the reality: there are islamist terrorists out there plotting all day, every day, to kill as many Americans as they can. Some of them are even field grade officers in the US Army! After Fort Hood, we had endless naval gazing about whether or not the attack was a "terrorist" event or not. And many came up with phoney explanations (like pre-post traumatic stress disorder) to explain away and ameliorate "Dr." Hasan's Islamist guilt.

Like Hasan, we had information on the would-be bomber, information that should have put him on the no-fly list and would have denied him a visa. It didn't happen. Why?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

Given the circumstances, that is an especially puerile remark.

Mr. Murray is a known jerk with few friends. I'd just ignore him.

He used to get his jollies calling people who make insightful comments "dope" but now he's not much more than a doddering old fool. Sad, really.

 

[Zudnic]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

My main thought on this is: is that the best al-Qaeda can do nowadays?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

My main thought on this is: is that the best al-Qaeda can do nowadays?

Let's hope so. The failure here, apparantly, was in the bomb design, not in our boy's ability/willingness to carry out the plan.

Paraphrasing that line from "Scared Straight" years ago: the terrorists can screw up a thousand times, we can only screw up once. In this case, we screwed up, and got away with it. We may not be so lucky next time.

 

[Alton]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

My main thought on this is: is that the best al-Qaeda can do nowadays?

Agreed. And speaking of "is that the best they can do," here is our government's response, in TSA SD-1544-09-06:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyin...rective-sd-1544-09-06-the-fallout-from-nw253/

For the next 3 days, for all flights from other countries--

During flight, the aircraft operator must ensure that the following procedures are followed:

1. Passengers must remain in seats beginning 1 hour prior to arrival at destination.
2. Passenger access to carry-on baggage is prohibited beginning 1 hour prior to arrival at destination.
3. Disable aircraft-integrated passenger communications systems and services (phone, internet access services, live television programming, global positioning systems) prior to boarding and during all phases of flight.
4. While over U.S. airspace, flight crew may not make any announcement to passengers concerning flight path or position over cities or landmarks.
5. Passengers may not have any blankets, pillows, or personal belongings on the lap beginning 1 hour prior to arrival at destination.

 

[unofan]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

1. Passengers must remain in seats beginning 1 hour prior to arrival at destination.
2. Passenger access to carry-on baggage is prohibited beginning 1 hour prior to arrival at destination.
3. Disable aircraft-integrated passenger communications systems and services (phone, internet access services, live television programming, global positioning systems) prior to boarding and during all phases of flight.
4. While over U.S. airspace, flight crew may not make any announcement to passengers concerning flight path or position over cities or landmarks.
5. Passengers may not have any blankets, pillows, or personal belongings on the lap beginning 1 hour prior to arrival at destination.[/i]

1) Because terrorists can't do things 1:30 before the end of the flight, right?
2) See above.
3) This helps, how?
4) Cause people don't have these things called eyes with which they can look out windows, right?
5) See 1).

 

[Alton]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

Exactly. You expect the government to come up with more inconvenience that would have stopped the last attack but does nothing to stop the next attack. What you don't expect is what we got: more inconvenience that would have done nothing at all to prevent the last attack, and will do nothing to prevent the next one.

The odds of somebody being injured as a result of a bladder infection or DVT due to these regs? Very low, but non-zero. The odds of a terrorist attack being prevented as a result of these regs? Zero.

Zero.

 

[blockski]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

yeah, its not like we have a government that could enforce standards for incoming flights anyhow.

BTW, there is a difference between realizing that the system failed and appropriating blame because of it. It would have been sufficient for Ms. Napolitano to admit that there is a hole and that they will work with the authorities of other gov'ts to amend that hole... or else refuse entry to those flights.

This whole line of thinking assumes that we can have an airline system that is both open to legitimate travel yet closed to illegal activity. That's a false assumption in my mind, really. The reality is that even if the system works, there are more than enough holes in the working system big enough to drive a freaking truck through.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/airport-security

As it is, we'll all get more security theater.

Bruce Schneier, who coined that particular phrase, noted there are two things (and only two) that have made air travel safer from terrorism following 9/11 - reinforcing the cockpit doors and instructing passengers to fight back in the case of an incident.

Yes, passengers are part of 'the system.' Because screening and ID checks will always be subject to multiple points of failure.

Everyone should read that article linked above, and then take note of how futile most of the airline 'security' we face is. It will also make those trying to score political points from this incident easy to spot.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

In the aftermath of 9/11 there were numerous "security" over reactions. My favorites:

The late Joe Foss, WWII medal of honor winner, first commissioner of the AFL and former governor of (South Dakota?) was traveling, with his medal, to some sort of gathering. He was forced to give up the medal (I suppose he could have been planning to use it as a throwing weapon) by people who undoubtedly had never seen or even heard of it.

The young special forces officer, in uniform, recovering from a broken jaw suffered in Afghanistan, approached a flight attendant with a wire cutting tool he'd need to open his jaws in the event he got airsick. He wasn't allowed to fly.

And the personal grooming salesman with a sample case full of nail clippers, cuticle cutters, etc. who wasn't allowed to fly, even though he had checked the bag.

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

Everyone should read that article linked above, and then take note of how futile most of the airline 'security' we face is. It will also make those trying to score political points from this incident easy to spot.

So, Janet Napolitano.

And Old Pio.

Gotcha.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

I read that the TSA is advising against carrying on luggage to prevent delays in security checks now. I hope the TSA is going to pony up and pay the extra $100+ per trip I take if I'm going to listen to them. Definitely helps to beef up checks on carry on luggage when the arseclown tried to detonate a device that was attached to his body as well

You can always take the train.

 

[Patman]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

This whole line of thinking assumes that we can have an airline system that is both open to legitimate travel yet closed to illegal activity. That's a false assumption in my mind, really. The reality is that even if the system works, there are more than enough holes in the working system big enough to drive a freaking truck through.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/airport-security

As it is, we'll all get more security theater.

Bruce Schneier, who coined that particular phrase, noted there are two things (and only two) that have made air travel safer from terrorism following 9/11 - reinforcing the cockpit doors and instructing passengers to fight back in the case of an incident.

Yes, passengers are part of 'the system.' Because screening and ID checks will always be subject to multiple points of failure.

Everyone should read that article linked above, and then take note of how futile most of the airline 'security' we face is. It will also make those trying to score political points from this incident easy to spot.

If it were "big enough to drive a truck through" then they'd be driving the trucks through

And, no, passengers are not part of 'the system' because that's the one element which can't be addressed ahead of time. While passenger attitudes will definitely mitigate the situation we cannot count on them to work.

I will agree that you can't stop everything and that even perfect systems will have flaws... and if so you have to just admit it and move on unless you can realistically do better.

The only thing I'll agree that we're going to get out of this is more security theater. Most of this is to cover other inefficiencies and issues in the system.

There's a false dichotomy here that doing more will negatively impact the public at large and I don't agree with that in this case. As for political points, shouldn't you be latching onto the likely reality that the current system was designed under the Bush administration. The only current political issue here is that Napolitano said something that was other-worldly dumb.

That being said, if the underwear bomb becomes a practically successful method and that those people can get through other security functions then necessarily we will see a run on these episodes which will either mean more security theater or we'll have to re-tool our assumptions of security and travel to adapt. All of that means we'll have to wait and see but lets not fool ourselves in the meantime.

 

[blockski]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

If it were "big enough to drive a truck through" then they'd be driving the trucks through

That's a curious statement. Did you read the article I posted? Do you realize how (relatively) easy it is to bypass things like the terrorist watch-list?

Just because some planes haven't been hijacked, you're declaring that the system had been working? You are aware the watch list exists for reasons other than just preventing hijackings, right?

Again, the idea that we can have both an open society (with open travel) and also protect against attacks like this is simply false - that's what terrorism is - it preys on the openness that is the hallmark of our society.

With it, the assumption that a screening system of some sort can and will catch all of the terrorists trying to get through is foolhardy.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

That's a curious statement. Did you read the article I posted? Do you realize how (relatively) easy it is to bypass things like the terrorist watch-list?

Just because some planes haven't been hijacked, you're declaring that the system had been working? You are aware the watch list exists for reasons other than just preventing hijackings, right?

Again, the idea that we can have both an open society (with open travel) and also protect against attacks like this is simply false - that's what terrorism is - it preys on the openness that is the hallmark of our society.

With it, the assumption that a screening system of some sort can and will catch all of the terrorists trying to get through is foolhardy.

Kind of makes the whole war thing kind of pointless, doesn't it?

 

[Clifton]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

Didn't the plane originate in Amsterdam? How is anything the TSA does going to affect them?

I don't know who's responsible for the security lines on departing international flights, but I'd guess it'd still be the local country, which in this case would be Dutch workers.

FYI, some countries are allowing TSA personnel to be onsite to an additional round of inspection at the point of departure. I don't know how many, but I went through it in Hong Kong last July.

 

[Boosh]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

If flying is so vital to your livelihood, you should be thankful your government is taking such steps to keep you safe. If you're just whining about an upcoming vacation, you should shut up and suck it up.

Stop being a whiner.

I don't trust my government in being able to protect me from anything beyond full-scale invasion. They've thoroughly proven that they can't do much as far as war, disease, weather, or little old ladies who forgot to check their nail clippers. Double checking my plastic baggie and strip searching another 2 people isn't going to change anything

You know, considering I'm more likely to die by having a vending machine fall on me than in a terrorist attack, I'll take the risk if it means I don't need to be strip searched every time I fly.

I'm not a violent felon, the only mark on my record is a single speeding ticket; I really get annoyed being treated like one at the airport. And no, just because I have nothing to hide doesn't make it ok.

I think we should let people pee an hour before landing, they just need armed guards, handcuffs, and that mask they put over Hannibal Lecter's face during transport

Still won't stop terrorist attempts, especially from foreign destinations. I view this as the same movement to ban guns from the public. The bad guys will still have them, though.

Bin Laden is brilliant. He may not have achieved a strong political /religious message on a high holiday, but he inflicted more economic damage to the airlines and to our economy.

They don't even need to blow up planes anymore to eff with the system. All they have to do is pick some guy they don't like and have him half-*** an attack and get all the paranoid losers worked up, and they don't even have to use up any of the virgin quota or incite a full-scale war

You can always take the train.

You find me a train from Appleton, WI to Salt Lake City and I'll be the first guy on it I'm all for rail travel, but that's a topic for another day

 

[Priceless]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

You find me a train from Appleton, WI to Salt Lake City and I'll be the first guy on it

Just drive to Green Bay, catch the bus to Milwaukee (or drive to Milwaukee), get the Hiawatha service to Chicago and then board the California Zephyr for SLC. One way is less than two days.

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

One way is less than two days.

This is why Europe and Japan laugh their arses off when they look at our train service.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Fear Not America, Janet Napolitano Is On The Job

This is why Europe and Japan laugh their arses off when they look at our train service.

If our country was the size of a postage stamp our rail service might be more efficient.