Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

She may be smart, she also appears to have been stubborn on this point....she could have made it all disappear at the outset with a proper show of contrition and humility.

"While it was always part of our family lore that we had a Cherokee ancestor, I never actually researched it to the point where I could definitively prove it with documentary evidence.
You know what it's like, you grow up hearing people say it all your life, you just assume it's true, the thought never crosses your mind to actually question it.
However, and I am so embarrassed, but because these questions have come up, I figured I'd just go look it up; after all, I'd heard about it all my life, the records wouldn't be all that hard to find, right?
Yeah, you'd think so, but guess what....can't find them anywhere. This is so awkward. I'm sorry, please it was an honest mistake."​

Done, over, forgotten.

sorry, the position of senator would be akin to a board or C level job in the rest of the world...the "I didn't know so I just thought I'd go ahead and declare myself a minority on a job application on which I should have known that designation could be of some benefit" answer isn't sufficient to me for a position of that level.

As I have said, if she consistently reports herself as such then that would be a different matter. If this was a momentary identification then the honest mistake part is not believable by me.

You believe what you want. i haven't been following the race, couldn't tell you who is ahead and would say the same thing regardless of party, gender, race etc. anybody that would make a mistake about their very identity when it just so happens it might help them get a job would not be worthy of my support.

 

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I think the notion that somebody who looks white as a ghost is getting preferential treatment is stark raving stupid. Lets say these schools are desperate to show a diverse faculty to the public. How exactly does putting Elizabeth Warren's face on their website accomplish that goal? I'm not sure the woman could even pull off getting a decent tan. Unless she was hired sight unseen, and the schools' expected her to show up with a feather in her hair, this is just dumb. Furthermore, I and I suspect a lot of people had no idea Native Americans were classified as minorities. If she was going to go that route, why not try to find some Hispanic heritage instead?

PS - I too have some Indian ancestory in me. Its all via family lore, although I do have a picture or two of a person who would be my grandmother's great grandmother. However, if you asked me for documented proof for someone born in the 1830's in northern Quebec, I might struggle to produce that info. I don't think that would make me a liar.

I answered that, it would help the university's diversity claims and ratios. if you think there isn't pressure on schools, boards, executive committees to ensure they have diversity you are kidding yourself...that you would suggest the way to measure that is by how white somebody looks seems to be intentionally argumentative

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I answered that, it would help the university's diversity claims and ratios. if you think there isn't pressure on schools, boards, executive committees to ensure they have diversity you are kidding yourself...that you would suggest the way to measure that is by how white somebody looks seems to be intentionally argumentative

But what you're missing is 1) who even realizes that Native Americans are considered minorities, and 2) wouldn't at some point someone want to see all these minority faculty members? Wouldn't they be asked to speak at events celebrating diversity for example? Do you really live in a world where nobody uses their own eyes to make judgements on how diverse a place is?

Although I won't be voting for Brown, I think he unwittingly is playing into the worst aspects of conservative politics. Its the boogeyman that unqualified minorities are getting a leg up on you hard working whities due to affirmative action. I'd expect this out of a Jesse Helms campaign. If I felt Brown actually felt this way I'd be out here blasting him for it but he needs to be careful to stay away from crap like this win or lose.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

On Native Americans, here in Arizona, where a sizable portion of the state is within reservations, I think it's pretty common knowledge that they are a minority. But, in some parts of the country where there aren't many Native Americans around, I can understand people might not be as aware.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

On Native Americans, here in Arizona, where a sizable portion of the state is within reservations, I think it's pretty common knowledge that they are a minority. But, in some parts of the country where there aren't many Native Americans around, I can understand people might not be as aware.

I think it's an East-West thing. Before I lived in the West I'd say my cognizance of Native Americans was roughly zero. In the West they are "real."

Same thing with Mormons. Living in the East you tend to view Mormons as a sort of quaint and bizarre cross between Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Then you move west and realize they own everything.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I think it's an East-West thing. Before I lived in the West I'd say my cognizance of Native Americans was roughly zero. In the West they are "real."

Same thing with Mormons. Living in the East you tend to view Mormons as a sort of quaint and bizarre cross between Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Then you move west and realize they own everything.

I was pretty active with Boy Scouts of America, which has a lot of Native American related traditions (Boy Scouts in other countries, maybe not so much). BSA goes out of its way to connect scouts with NA tribes/historians who keep the ceremonies alive, so I was certainly well aware of the history and modern presence of NAs in the area where I grew up in the east (if east TN counts as being in the east).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I think it's an East-West thing. Before I lived in the West I'd say my cognizance of Native Americans was roughly zero. In the West they are "real."

Same thing with Mormons. Living in the East you tend to view Mormons as a sort of quaint and bizarre cross between Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Then you move west and realize they own everything.

True. I have friends and co-workers and neighbors that are Native Americans or Mormons, and they're just part of the mix with everyone else.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I was pretty active with Boy Scouts of America, which has a lot of Native American related traditions (Boy Scouts in other countries, maybe not so much). BSA goes out of its way to connect scouts with NA tribes/historians who keep the ceremonies alive, so I was certainly well aware of the history and modern presence of NAs in the area where I grew up in the east (if east TN counts as being in the east).

Yes, eastern TN is definitely considered eastern, at least coming from this Arizonan and former Minnesotan.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Wait. I'm like 1/128th Native American...you're saying I should have been claiming all along that I was a minority? Damm, opportunities wasted.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

More fun from my favorite state of Arizona!

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2...icial_suggests_obama_could_be_off_ballot.html

At best the guy's a total hayseed. At worse he's a racist scumbag. Pretty bad when the guy who's running the state's elections (the SoS) is doing this. Is he calling up to check on Romney's place of birth too, seeing as he had family in Mexico...

I really wonder what knuckledraggers think they have to gain by this. Is the guy just stupid or under the guise that this is going to somehow help his party's electoral prospects?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

More fun from my favorite state of Arizona!

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2...icial_suggests_obama_could_be_off_ballot.html

At best the guy's a total hayseed. At worse he's a racist scumbag. Pretty bad when the guy who's running the state's elections (the SoS) is doing this. Is he calling up to check on Romney's place of birth too, seeing as he had family in Mexico...

I really wonder what knuckledraggers think they have to gain by this. Is the guy just stupid or under the guise that this is going to somehow help his party's electoral prospects?

Now Rover. No playing favorites. I realize we're quite the lovable bunch down here in the Grand Canyon State, but don't be too biased in our favor. Next thing I know, you'll be touting all the bolo ties you wear!

 

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

But what you're missing is 1) who even realizes that Native Americans are considered minorities, and 2) wouldn't at some point someone want to see all these minority faculty members? Wouldn't they be asked to speak at events celebrating diversity for example? Do you really live in a world where nobody uses their own eyes to make judgements on how diverse a place is?

Although I won't be voting for Brown, I think he unwittingly is playing into the worst aspects of conservative politics. Its the boogeyman that unqualified minorities are getting a leg up on you hard working whities due to affirmative action. I'd expect this out of a Jesse Helms campaign. If I felt Brown actually felt this way I'd be out here blasting him for it but he needs to be careful to stay away from crap like this win or lose.

Do you have any experience in developing a diverse staff in any organization, public or private? You ask these questions as if you have no idea how this works...that may be true but I suspect you are intentionally being obtuse.

SHE said she was a minority. Are you proposing the first question should have been "you don't look like a minority, what kind of minority are you?" mildly illegal, even way back then.

And NO, nobody would say "line up your faculty so we can see who is a minority". That is something that is tracked to ensure there isn't discrimination but they don't put out a team photo listing who is 1/2 this, 100% that etc. However, in EEOC reporting and other places the school would disclose that a certain number and percent of their faculty was minority.

Again, if you have no experience with this then stop making assumptions and declarations...if you do have experience, then you are just arguing because she represents the party you support.

Lastly, yes, i do live in a world where nobody should make judgments like this based on the color of somebody's face. And it is a frickin law school, think they might have a clue about this type of stuff? Should the guy with the prosthetic leg be photographed in shorts so the school can prove they don't discriminate based on disability? Should people over 40 have to wear a sign indicating they are a protected class? Should someone who is 50% something have to say "I may not look it but I'm an asian and therefore a minority?

Sounds like you are alternately arguing that the school should have to report who is a minority or we should make those judgments based on how they look in a photo.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Therefore, couldn't our current President claim to be white? He'd be wright.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Do you have any experience in developing a diverse staff in any organization, public or private? You ask these questions as if you have no idea how this works...that may be true but I suspect you are intentionally being obtuse.

SHE said she was a minority. Are you proposing the first question should have been "you don't look like a minority, what kind of minority are you?" mildly illegal, even way back then.

And NO, nobody would say "line up your faculty so we can see who is a minority". That is something that is tracked to ensure there isn't discrimination but they don't put out a team photo listing who is 1/2 this, 100% that etc. However, in EEOC reporting and other places the school would disclose that a certain number and percent of their faculty was minority.

Again, if you have no experience with this then stop making assumptions and declarations...if you do have experience, then you are just arguing because she represents the party you support.

Lastly, yes, i do live in a world where nobody should make judgments like this based on the color of somebody's face. And it is a frickin law school, think they might have a clue about this type of stuff? Should the guy with the prosthetic leg be photographed in shorts so the school can prove they don't discriminate based on disability? Should people over 40 have to wear a sign indicating they are a protected class? Should someone who is 50% something have to say "I may not look it but I'm an asian and therefore a minority?

Sounds like you are alternately arguing that the school should have to report who is a minority or we should make those judgments based on how they look in a photo.

When I was the manager of a small staff I was never asked to ensure a diverse population to answer your question.

Lets cut through the rest of it. Your assertation, as well as the Heralds, is that Warren got hired because she listed herself as a minority. If this Helmsesque line of reasoning is true, can you show us the facts? Because Harvard has gone on record as saying this had nothing to do with her being hired.

Next, the premise that these ratios are calculated in a vacuum is ridiculous. At some point, don't you think someone is going to want to meet these minority faculty? Say you're a minority student. Harvard Law boosts a 25% minority ratio or something. When you visit campus, you ask to meet some of the minority faculty who'll be teaching you. They bring out Elizabeth Warren. Your reaction wouldn't be '***'? This wouldn't get out eventually that the school was packing its ratios with dubious claims? Claiming that she's achieved her position due to some complicity between herself and the schools hiring her leaves out the fact that it makes no sense both for her and for the school.

What I do know is this from personal experience. If you are of several ethnicities, you may choose one above the others to say that's what you are. Doesn't have to be the most prevelant one. In fact it can even change depending on what info you find out, stories you hear, etc. Far from some vast legal education field conspiracy, I'm guessing Warren at one point in her life got interested in the idea, based on family lore, of being a Native American. Maybe even God forbid to submit a recipe to a cookbook which apparently is a federal offense. Until you can show me where she's gotten special treatment over this, you are either full of BS or carrying the water for a GOP senator in danger of losing his job.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Now Rover. No playing favorites. I realize we're quite the lovable bunch down here in the Grand Canyon State, but don't be too biased in our favor. Next thing I know, you'll be touting all the bolo ties you wear!

The official tie of Arizona. Memories of Bill Close.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Wait. I'm like 1/128th Native American...you're saying I should have been claiming all along that I was a minority? Damm, opportunities wasted.

Think of all those cookbook royalties you're missing out on.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I think it's an East-West thing. Before I lived in the West I'd say my cognizance of Native Americans was roughly zero. In the West they are "real."

Same thing with Mormons. Living in the East you tend to view Mormons as a sort of quaint and bizarre cross between Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Then you move west and realize they own everything.

Including the Olympia brewry, the Union Pacific railroad and the largest Coke bottling plant between Chicago and the west coast.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I think the notion that somebody who looks white as a ghost is getting preferential treatment is stark raving stupid. Lets say these schools are desperate to show a diverse faculty to the public. How exactly does putting Elizabeth Warren's face on their website accomplish that goal? I'm not sure the woman could even pull off getting a decent tan. Unless she was hired sight unseen, and the schools' expected her to show up with a feather in her hair, this is just dumb. Furthermore, I and I suspect a lot of people had no idea Native Americans were classified as minorities. If she was going to go that route, why not try to find some Hispanic heritage instead?

PS - I too have some Indian ancestory in me. Its all via family lore, although I do have a picture or two of a person who would be my grandmother's great grandmother. However, if you asked me for documented proof for someone born in the 1830's in northern Quebec, I might struggle to produce that info. I don't think that would make me a liar.

Not getting into the faldarall about whether the minority thing should effect anything but my immediate thought about proof was 'what??!!'

I am an amateur genealogist and the thought that someone can't prove backgound so they should not claim it is laughable if you are relying on records from this country. My family deeply believes we came over on the 2nd Mayflower. THis has been passed down for generations. I have been at it for 20 yrs and can't find the last link. Records in the US are abominable when compared to just about everywhere else. They are missing, incomplete, incorrectly documented, contradictary and depending on the time period lacking in info. Many minority people puposefully labeled themself something else because to be labeled correctly would subject them to prejudices or in many cases they just didn't think it was important to ask the question in a way that would get the right answer. In Mass the records are like a patchwork quilt.

Any person who is serious about doing this type of research wouldn't dismiss something just because they could not find proof. They just label it as unconfirmed yet unless proof was found against it. Even if that happens do you blame the person for saying what they have been told? I can't say I would expect someone to want me to provide proof of my ancestry if I was claiming something that remote.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Not getting into the faldarall about whether the minority thing should effect anything but my immediate thought about proof was 'what??!!'

I am an amateur genealogist and the thought that someone can't prove backgound so they should not claim it is laughable if you are relying on records from this country. My family deeply believes we came over on the 2nd Mayflower. THis has been passed down for generations. I have been at it for 20 yrs and can't find the last link. Records in the US are abominable when compared to just about everywhere else. They are missing, incomplete, incorrectly documented, contradictary and depending on the time period lacking in info. Many minority people puposefully labeled themself something else because to be labeled correctly would subject them to prejudices or in many cases they just didn't think it was important to ask the question in a way that would get the right answer. In Mass the records are like a patchwork quilt.

Any person who is serious about doing this type of research wouldn't dismiss something just because they could not find proof. They just label it as unconfirmed yet unless proof was found against it. Even if that happens do you blame the person for saying what they have been told? I can't say I would expect someone to want me to provide proof of my ancestry if I was claiming something that remote.

Man, you dole out the benefit of the doubt like chick-fil-A coupons at the mall.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Troubling numbers for Romney in the latest Fox Poll.
But there's enough nuggets in there that the talking heads on Fox "News" will be harping tonight. If I watched, I would expect them to highlight Obama's approval rating ("only" 49%) which is way down from the high of 65% back in January 2009. I wouldn't be surprised if they forget to mention that it's above his average (48) or up since last month (42). 51% disapprove of his handling of health care (I wonder if they'll remember to say that it's the lowest that number has been since October 2009).

Fox "News" was even more critical of it's own poll. Lou Dobbs reported a rival poll instead (that favored Romney...what a shock) and Dick Morris said people shouldn't pay any attention to the poll (I'm sure Fox appreciates one of their own guys saying people shouldn't pay any attention to a poll for which they paid good money).

MORRIS: Well, I don't mean to accuse Fox News of Democratic bias, but -- liberal bias -- but I do want to point that it generally doesn't make sense to do a survey where 40 percent of the people you're interviewing are not gonna vote.

BILL O'REILLY (host): Forty percent of registered voters didn't show up last time, right?

MORRIS: Right.

O'REILLY: But, the mood of the country is what the Fox News poll wanted to gauge.

MORRIS: Look, there is a real purpose to surveying adults [unintelligible] among registered voters -- they all live here and they pay taxes.

O'REILLY: Yeah, I mean, this basically shows that Obama has some strength.

MORRIS: But if you want to know how the election's going to come out, don't pay attention to that.