Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

[mookie1995]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

It's like when we were warned the stock market would crater after this passed... It's taking an awfully long time to tank...

actually it's nothing like that.

if a company can save half their expenses on healthcare (by switching to 'raise + fine') and in the process say, "hey, there is obama care and it's actually cheaper for you to buy into that AND we give you a raise" there is a valid option for a place to try and save money.

"stock market" is an abstract with no face making decisions. a company makes changed to the health insurance they provide all the time. in fact, once a year

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

It's one thing to claim you're going to drop insurance. It's something else to completely throw your entire employee base under the health care bus. Watch for an exodus from your company as soon as the employees find an opening...

so if you need to subscribe to the national health care plan, that is the same as being 'thrown under the bus'? not exactly a ringing endorsement

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

40 Golden Oldies:
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2012/07/03/the_40_best_quotes_from_ronald_reagan

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

so rover,

what about that study mckinsey did where they opine that at a minimum 30% of companies that currently offer health insurance will drop it - since it's cheaper to pay the fine and give a raise to workers than pay $20k+ in premiums? sure, if say citizens bank drops it their workers may apply to boa, but boa already has workers - and if boa sees how much td saves, why wouldn't they do the same?

(and i'm asking your opinion since you put more thought into this than most people - don't just reply "KNUCKLE DRAGGERS!!!!" )

KNUCKLEDR--- oops, sorry.

I appreciate any study that a top notch consultant like McKenzie has to offer even if they are mostly made up of Harvard grads. My response is the Massachusetts experience. When I posed this question previously a conservative tried to change the subject to insurers being forced to take on pre existing conditions, a point that has nothing to do with the question at hand. So, we have one hand a well thought out opinion, and on the other a factual experience with a 6 year track record.

Now, there are some significant differences between this state and the country as whole. Its far wealthier for one and had less uninsured people when the program which I'll call Romneycare was first launched. However, businesses aren't much different. Liberty Mutual, EMC, Boston Scientific, etc all should have dumped their employees onto the state by now but didn't.

As to why this hasn't happened, I'll speculate for two reasons. 1) It may not be that much cheaper to dump your employees off onto the state even before counting all the administrative costs it would take to do so, and 2) I question whether companies really want to pay their employees 20K more for the same job as another company down the street. More likely they'd pay 5 grand more and pocket the difference which would cause smelly Occupy Wherever protestors to camp out in their lobby. At this point it might not be worth the trouble.

A lot of analysis of this particular issue looks at things in a bubble. Meaning the idea that people will say, oh the fine is 500, insurance is 1000 so I'm up 500 if I don't get it. That's a faulty analysis IMHO because you're getting nothing for paying a fine but getting something (coverage) for your thousand bucks. Not sure if McKenzie did that or not, but human behavior is a lot more complicated than some of the speculation I've seen.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Here in bizarro world, we now have sitting president Barry stridently insisting that he is in fact raising taxes to fund Obamacare while his Republican opponents scream no, no, no, he's not raising taxes at all... it's just a "penalty"!

"read my lips - this is a new tax!"

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Anyone hung up on the the penalty/tax distinction needs to go take their dog for a walk. Visit a national park. Go for a drive. Do something and get out of the house.

Obama raised taxes, and Romney lied about not doing so. Obamacare uses a personal responsibility penalty, cribbed from Romneycare. 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. It's a push. Time for a good summer scandal to get the news cycle turning again.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Anyone hung up on the the penalty/tax distinction needs to go take their dog for a walk. Visit a national park. Go for a drive. Do something and get out of the house.

You mean Roberts?

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

You mean Roberts?

Anyone hung up on the electoral political significance. (read: Rupert Murdoch telling Romney to fire Fehrnstrom over tax-penalty-gate, or whatever it's being called)

Though it's true that many think Roberts should have been more hung up on that. They also need to get out of the house.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Anyone hung up on the electoral political significance. (read: Rupert Murdoch telling Romney to fire Fehrnstrom over tax-penalty-gate, or whatever it's being called)

Though it's true that many think Roberts should have been more hung up on that. They also need to get out of the house.

The best poll I read on the health care debate was a Pew (?) poll before the decision that said 75% thought that after the decision we should move on. It may be that whichever side talks the most about it just annoys people at this point.

I'm sure Romney can make the most of the decision by railing against it in front of the tea baggers and being silent about it otherwise. Of course, to do that he would have to talk out of both sides of his mouth...

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Time for a good summer scandal to get the news cycle turning again.

yeah, let's get revved up over fast and furious or something. boehner mumbling about filing suit in civil court to compel release of documents....


frankly, I don't get this one at all. As far as I can discern from reading between the lines, Holder had no involvement whatsoever in the initial planning....why would he then start a cover-up after the fact?? this reminds me so much of Nixon and watergate....it seemed pretty clear that he had no advance knowledge or involvement before the break-in either...

you'd think that with all the lessons of history, they'd know better?

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

yeah, let's get revved up over fast and furious or something. boehner mumbling about filing suit in civil court to compel release of documents....

Something more interesting than that would be nice...like long lost pictures of Obama going all Magic Mike on a bachelorette party. Or Romney getting back to his roots and marrying a second wife.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Something more interesting than that would be nice...like long lost pictures of Obama going all Magic Mike on a bachelorette party. Or Romney getting back to his roots and marrying a second wife.

Somebody someday is going to test the constitutionality on the prohibition of poly marriages. They'll win.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Somebody someday is going to test the constitutionality on the prohibition of poly marriages. They'll win.

Multiple spouses would be its own punishment.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

one last point about PPACA, forget about the politics for a minute, just talking practicality....Roberts' ruling pretty much ensures that the law as written will not work. The economics are askew and will need to be adjusted.

The House will vote next week to repeal PPACA; it will be real interesting to see how the CBO scores that one.....will repeal now project out to reduce the deficit???

The states can decline to participate in the Medicaid expansion part of the bill if they want, which means that the feds will have to cover those people on their own, increasing the projected cost substantially compared to last time around, in which it was assumed all states would "have to" participate. Now that they can keep what they are already getting, the incentives have changed substantially. And the Medicaid ruling was 7-2 with Kagan and Breyer joining Roberts, Kennedy, and the Three Amigos.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

this reminds me so much of Nixon and watergate....it seemed pretty clear that he had no advance knowledge or involvement before the break-in either...

Nixon was both a micro-manager and a paranoid. There is no way he didn't have advanced knowledge about the break-in.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I really don't understand what Robert's ruling has to do with the law working or not working. It's a tax, it always was a tax, and it will always be a tax. As for the Governors bowing out of Medicaid, I wish them the best of luck. Arizona was the lone wolf who tried it in c1972 and that didn't last very long.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Nixon was both a micro-manager and a paranoid. There is no way he didn't have advanced knowledge about the break-in.

Kind of hard to ask him now. Maybe Pat knows.

However, he was the President and in charge of the campaign. Therefore he is responsible, but not to blame. People who are to blame lose their jobs, people who are responsible do not.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

People who are to blame lose their jobs, people who are responsible do not.

True dat.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

You mean Roberts?

Word from up the coast is that he's already hit his summer house near Acadia, so he might be doing exactly that!

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

one last point about PPACA, forget about the politics for a minute, just talking practicality....Roberts' ruling pretty much ensures that the law as written will not work. The economics are askew and will need to be adjusted.

The House will vote next week to repeal PPACA; it will be real interesting to see how the CBO scores that one.....will repeal now project out to reduce the deficit???

The states can decline to participate in the Medicaid expansion part of the bill if they want, which means that the feds will have to cover those people on their own, increasing the projected cost substantially compared to last time around, in which it was assumed all states would "have to" participate. Now that they can keep what they are already getting, the incentives have changed substantially. And the Medicaid ruling was 7-2 with Kagan and Breyer joining Roberts, Kennedy, and the Three Amigos.

Congrats! The most mistruths packed into one posting for the day. You get a free copy of John "The Boner" Boehner's best speeches. Enjoy.

Roberts ruling does nothing of the sort. The feds will already be covering those people on their own to the tune of 100% of the cost of the Medicare expansion followed by a 90% reimbursement in later years. So I fail to see where the economics change. Furthermore, your premise only works if 1) the entire country is governed by Republicans on a statewide level, 2) this 50 state GOP dominance survives any turnover over time, and 3) all GOP governors swear fidelity to the oath of not taking any federal dollars.

So, lets assume the govs of CA and NY go along with this. That takes care of the largest and third largest states in the country. Illinois is another. Moving on GOP officeholders in swing states most likely go along as otherwise their citizens will be paying taxes and getting no benefit (think PA for example). Lastly, given his basement level approval ratings, ideologues like Gov Scott most likely aren't going to be around after the 2014 elections to raise idiotic objections.

So what you might have is a governor such as Jindal trying to get good press from the right wing media and that's about it. Want proof of this? Look no further than the stimulus. Quick, name me one state that ended up refusing the money? Answer: none.