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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Who does the trial? Is it similar to an impeachment trial, where the Honorable Roberts presides and the Senators vote as jury? If so, there's no way he's being indicted.
EDIT: Article 2, Section 4:
Also, Article 1, Section 3, Clause 6:
There's no way he's going to be removed from office, unless the CBC walks out.
Meanwhile, elsewhere, the House found Holder in contempt of Congress, which in itself is no surpise, it was widely expected.
What I found absolutely jaw-dropping, however, was the vote total: 255 - 67.
There are 435 Representatives, so that means that, on top of the 17 Democrats who voted 'yes', as many as an astounding 113 more Democrates refused to vote no!
Naturally, they are saying that they "walked out in protest," but in a town where actions speak more loudly than words, the translation is "OK, we have your back to the extent that we won't vote 'yes' and we're letting you know by not voting 'no' that you are venturing into dangerous territory and better stop stone-walling, or we won't be able to hold out much longer if this heats up as an issue in an election year. Don't ask us to defend you on this one because we won't."
in the shadows today, will become even bigger in the weeks to come. the mainstream media are starating to sniff blood in the water, and a few are tentatively starting to circle.....for the sake of control of Congress, they need to find a face-saving way out quickly.
The size of the "no" total is around 130, that's about 60% of the House Democrats or something like that, no? A canary in the coal mine moment. Will he notice and take heed? Stay tuned....
Who does the trial? Is it similar to an impeachment trial, where the Honorable Roberts presides and the Senators vote as jury? If so, there's no way he's being indicted.
EDIT: Article 2, Section 4:
Also, Article 1, Section 3, Clause 6:
There's no way he's going to be removed from office, unless the CBC walks out.
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Its still not what "CJR's argument gets boiled down to". Tell me exactly how that statement has any bearing on the Constitutionality of the law.
To summarize his position, Roberts says "the Court does not express any opinion on the wisdom of the Affordable Care Act. Under the Constitution, that judgment is reserved to the people". A message to those who wanted him to vote politically...but alas for the right, he did not do so.
And just to correct the misperceptions here...CJR's argument does boil down to his position that "it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress’s power to tax."
I suggest you read the actual statement: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf
What a nice tune you are whistling on your stroll past the graveyard!
Oh, by the way, this is what Roberts actually wrote in his decision:
Do you seriously belive that this language is not going to appear in commercials this fall? Seriously?
Its still not what "CJR's argument gets boiled down to". Tell me exactly how that statement has any bearing on the Constitutionality of the law.
To summarize his position, Roberts says "the Court does not express any opinion on the wisdom of the Affordable Care Act. Under the Constitution, that judgment is reserved to the people". A message to those who wanted him to vote politically...but alas for the right, he did not do so.
And just to correct the misperceptions here...CJR's argument does boil down to his position that "it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress’s power to tax."
I suggest you read the actual statement: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
There is an obvious faux pas in the headline. The ruling cannot be fought. The Supreme Court is the highest court in the land, and they cannot be appealed. The only thing that can be done is to create another law to repeal the old law.
There is an obvious faux pas in the headline. The ruling cannot be fought. The Supreme Court is the highest court in the land, and they cannot be appealed. The only thing that can be done is to create another law to repeal the old law.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
not what I meant, but you're right.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Classic! I never thought Fishy would start channeling Cokie Roberts, but there you have it. Somehow Mittens Romney will be able to take advantage by opposing law he signed for his own state while governor. Makes sense to me.
Even if Obama "wins" on something, it's really a win for the republicans.
Classic! I never thought Fishy would start channeling Cokie Roberts, but there you have it. Somehow Mittens Romney will be able to take advantage by opposing law he signed for his own state while governor. Makes sense to me.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
You know there is no relation to the "Constitutionality" of a law and its popularity, and you also know that bad laws, even if Constitutional, can be repealed and replaced. I merely said that the ruling will hurt Obama far more than it helps him. No need to argue over something when we can just wait and see.
You know, if I'm caught in a bad storm, I don't take it personally and I don't feel emotionally betrayed, I just accomodate and ride it out and take proper precautions. there's no investment of self, I just look outside and say the weather looks bad. somehow y'all are taking a statement that "the weather looks bad" and adding all sorts of value judgments, somehow projecting on to me some notion that I'm like King Lear, raging against the storm, being offended that somehow I'm getting rained on. If you want to ignore the portent of dark clouds and thunder, that's up to you; for my part I'm going to carry an umbrella, just in case.
You know there is no relation to the "Constitutionality" of a law and its popularity, and you also know that bad laws, even if Constitutional, can be repealed and replaced. I merely said that the ruling will hurt Obama far more than it helps him. No need to argue over something when we can just wait and see.
You know, if I'm caught in a bad storm, I don't take it personally and I don't feel emotionally betrayed, I just accomodate and ride it out and take proper precautions. there's no investment of self, I just look outside and say the weather looks bad. somehow y'all are taking a statement that "the weather looks bad" and adding all sorts of value judgments, somehow projecting on to me some notion that I'm like King Lear, raging against the storm, being offended that somehow I'm getting rained on. If you want to ignore the portent of dark clouds and thunder, that's up to you; for my part I'm going to carry an umbrella, just in case.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
And we forget that every new federal program means increased expense in DC. HHS (and the IRS) will have to hire new employees to administer / enforce the ACA, which means more federal spending -> greater deficits.
At the state level, the program is (was) unique to Massachusetts because it worked (?) for Massachusetts. But is health care something that the Federal Government is supposed to get into? What worked in MA may not work in California.Classic! I never thought Fishy would start channeling Cokie Roberts, but there you have it. Somehow Mittens Romney will be able to take advantage by opposing law he signed for his own state while governor. Makes sense to me.
And we forget that every new federal program means increased expense in DC. HHS (and the IRS) will have to hire new employees to administer / enforce the ACA, which means more federal spending -> greater deficits.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
And why do we care? The Baby Boomers have already decided our fate. Just accept it and move on.
And why do we care? The Baby Boomers have already decided our fate. Just accept it and move on.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Not sure about that either. Nate Silver on FiveThirtyEight makes a good case that if it got struck down it would have been bad...whereas as it passed, its only a slight plus for the president. The general logic is straightforward...if struck down, the supposed primary policy of the administration would have been an overreach. As it is, its a matter of political opinion...even if its less popular. Likewise, the debate could well turn to healthcare...if so, Romney's not particularly wellsuited to take that battle as his policy is the foundation for its framework. Also, for those who see it as a political sideshow...healthcare can divert national attention away from what would otherwise be the elephant in the room, the economy.
So I don't know that I would take that position quite yet and in any case, its better outcome for the president than the alternative.
Not sure about that either. Nate Silver on FiveThirtyEight makes a good case that if it got struck down it would have been bad...whereas as it passed, its only a slight plus for the president. The general logic is straightforward...if struck down, the supposed primary policy of the administration would have been an overreach. As it is, its a matter of political opinion...even if its less popular. Likewise, the debate could well turn to healthcare...if so, Romney's not particularly wellsuited to take that battle as his policy is the foundation for its framework. Also, for those who see it as a political sideshow...healthcare can divert national attention away from what would otherwise be the elephant in the room, the economy.
So I don't know that I would take that position quite yet and in any case, its better outcome for the president than the alternative.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Well....the Supreme Court just ruled that Obama has imposed the largest tax increase in history on middle-class earners.
Also, the Supreme Court has also pointed out explicitly that the law won't work as intended ("It may often be a reasonable financial decision to make the [tax] payment rather than purchase insurance").
Now, Obama has to try to defend an already-unpopular law on its "merits" which also means his opponents can highlight all the problems with it.
We live in an iPad world, and PPACA is a typewriter....it's an old black rotary land-line human switchboard telephone system in a smartphone world. We can do much better.
Well....the Supreme Court just ruled that Obama has imposed the largest tax increase in history on middle-class earners.
Also, the Supreme Court has also pointed out explicitly that the law won't work as intended ("It may often be a reasonable financial decision to make the [tax] payment rather than purchase insurance").
Now, Obama has to try to defend an already-unpopular law on its "merits" which also means his opponents can highlight all the problems with it.
We live in an iPad world, and PPACA is a typewriter....it's an old black rotary land-line human switchboard telephone system in a smartphone world. We can do much better.
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Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
And the GOP alternative is a quill pen. Without ink.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
There is no tax if you have Health Insurance. The way the system is set up nowadays you need Health Insurance. So, there is no tax increase.
Quit regurgitating Hannity's lies.
There is no tax if you have Health Insurance. The way the system is set up nowadays you need Health Insurance. So, there is no tax increase.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
There are two things that come to mind about this:
1. How much will the tax be? Is it a flat amount or a percentage?
2. Given that interest and dividend income will be taxed extra, will those payments be able to offset the tax, or is it a double tax?
There are two things that come to mind about this:
1. How much will the tax be? Is it a flat amount or a percentage?
2. Given that interest and dividend income will be taxed extra, will those payments be able to offset the tax, or is it a double tax?
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Perhaps you didn't read the law. The law states that an insurance company shall not deny an applicant on the grounds of current medical status. This means that you could get sick, buy the coverage, make the deduction, and then cancel the insurance when you are well again. Well people may choose to pay the tax over taking the insurance, as premiums will rise due to the aforementioned behaviour.
Perhaps you didn't read the law. The law states that an insurance company shall not deny an applicant on the grounds of current medical status. This means that you could get sick, buy the coverage, make the deduction, and then cancel the insurance when you are well again. Well people may choose to pay the tax over taking the insurance, as premiums will rise due to the aforementioned behaviour.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
It's all he's got, leave him be.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
All true, but really not the point to the question. RomneyCare sticks to Mitt no matter what. Every time he goes after Obama for it he is going to look more two faced than usual. (whether right or wrong) Remember in politics it is not whether it is true, it is whether it APPEARS to be true and in this case everyone knows ObamaCare = RomneyCare which means it is a dead issue. Even if he argues the States Rights part of it and says it just how you put it no one will buy what he is selling. Mitt has an image problem (the idea that he is a rich snob who is out of touch) so no one trusts him anyways.
As a bunch of us said during the primaries the GOP Gang of Candidates did all the work on Romney that needs to be done. There is enough quotes and fodder on the public record against Mitt from the "Flavor of the Week" trying to take him down that Obama can just run clips of GOP debates to get his point across. The GOP leadership gambled, it was obvious they didnt want Romney so they tried their hardest to get anyone else and let them go full bore on him hoping he would crack or one of them would come out of nowhere to get the nomination. Problem was it was a succession of Rick Perrys and Herman Cains. Now they are going to pay that price with their Rominey
If they can get Rubio to run in 4 years though, I think that could shift around the Derp of the GOP. I may not agree with all of his ideas, but I think he has credibility not many people who run for high office have these days and I found myself pretty impressed watching him The Daily Show in that half hour interview. If the GOP would rally around a guy like him instead ******nozzles like Cantor everyone wins.
All true, but really not the point to the question. RomneyCare sticks to Mitt no matter what. Every time he goes after Obama for it he is going to look more two faced than usual. (whether right or wrong) Remember in politics it is not whether it is true, it is whether it APPEARS to be true and in this case everyone knows ObamaCare = RomneyCare which means it is a dead issue. Even if he argues the States Rights part of it and says it just how you put it no one will buy what he is selling. Mitt has an image problem (the idea that he is a rich snob who is out of touch) so no one trusts him anyways.
As a bunch of us said during the primaries the GOP Gang of Candidates did all the work on Romney that needs to be done. There is enough quotes and fodder on the public record against Mitt from the "Flavor of the Week" trying to take him down that Obama can just run clips of GOP debates to get his point across. The GOP leadership gambled, it was obvious they didnt want Romney so they tried their hardest to get anyone else and let them go full bore on him hoping he would crack or one of them would come out of nowhere to get the nomination. Problem was it was a succession of Rick Perrys and Herman Cains. Now they are going to pay that price with their Rominey
If they can get Rubio to run in 4 years though, I think that could shift around the Derp of the GOP. I may not agree with all of his ideas, but I think he has credibility not many people who run for high office have these days and I found myself pretty impressed watching him The Daily Show in that half hour interview. If the GOP would rally around a guy like him instead ******nozzles like Cantor everyone wins.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
That must be a really catchy tune to have so many people whistling it today....must be a nice graveyard to have so many people strolling past!
The law anticipates that 4 million people will pay the tax rather than buy health insurance....sounds like a pretty substantial tax increase to me! and this from the person who's motto supposedly is "do the math"??
Roberts again, quoting the CBO:
So the CBO anticipates that this tax will affect 4 million people.
I submit to you sir that 4,000,000 > 0.
That must be a really catchy tune to have so many people whistling it today....must be a nice graveyard to have so many people strolling past!
The law anticipates that 4 million people will pay the tax rather than buy health insurance....sounds like a pretty substantial tax increase to me! and this from the person who's motto supposedly is "do the math"??
Roberts again, quoting the CBO:
[emphasis added]
So the CBO anticipates that this tax will affect 4 million people.
I submit to you sir that 4,000,000 > 0.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
It is fun to watch you cling and pray hoping this turns out to be a loss for Obama because you made a fool of yourself the last few months guaranteeing it would be overturned. you were wrong, it happens (for you a lot) get over it and just move on.
Or are you saying if the law had been overturned then Obama really wins? Somehow I doubt you would have been saying that had it happened.
Fishy Troll is Fishy
Maybe go watch a Disney movie and make a new foreign policy
It is fun to watch you cling and pray hoping this turns out to be a loss for Obama because you made a fool of yourself the last few months guaranteeing it would be overturned. you were wrong, it happens (for you a lot) get over it and just move on.
Or are you saying if the law had been overturned then Obama really wins? Somehow I doubt you would have been saying that had it happened.
Fishy Troll is Fishy
Maybe go watch a Disney movie and make a new foreign policy
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