What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

We tried that before. "Separate but (Un)Equal" isn't Constitutional.
Different issue. Civil rights are guaranteed under the Constitution; a state can't violate those.

But what if, for example, the federal government shuttered the Department of Education and stopped the spigot of education funding? Let's say to make it even simpler there was no change in law -- the federal government still claimed the power to regulate education, but chose not to.

Then, Mississippi could choose not to have any public schools at all, if they didn't want to pay for them. Or they could choose to devolve it to the counties. They still could not set up segregated schools -- that violates the Constitution no matter what.

Now imagine the same thing across everything, from worker safety to the FDA.

But New York could (and would) still have health and safety regulations that mandated base levels for any food being brought into and/or sold within the state. So companies operating in Mississippi would still have to pass those tests to sell anything in NY. Companies that incurred those costs would lobby Mississippi to adopt those regulations so they didn't lose MS business to the laissez-faire poison pushers. Companies would try to set up dummy testers with fake results, but the enlightened states would suss them out and not accept their products.

In other words, all the same functions that used to happen at the federal level would be replicated at the state level, with the same (or greater) tax burden now imposed by state taxes, and anybody who didn't want to play would become, literally, a failed state. It would be the same as now, only people couldn't blame the federal government anymore. The states would gradually all conform to regulatory structures or inexorably fall behind and become North Mexico.

It would be brutally inefficient, but it would be worth it to make certain states put up or shut up.
 
Last edited:
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So it sounds like whatever Obama meant, he did not say it very well, or very clearly.

Someone else did say what Obama's apologists herein have maintained he meant:

Small business is the gateway to opportunity for those who want a piece of the American Dream. Wouldn't it be nice to hear a little more about the forgotten heroes of America, those who create most of our new jobs, like the owners of stores down the street, the faithful who support our churches, synagogues, schools and communities. The brave men and women everywhere who produce our goods, feed a hungry world, and keep our families warm while they invest in the future to build a better America. That's where miracles are made. Not In Washington, D.C.

oops, oh wait, sorry, while this quote does invoke the sense of community and co-operation and interdependence, it still has one group of private citizens doing things to help other groups of private citizens.....
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So it sounds like whatever Obama meant, he did not say it very well, or very clearly.

Someone else did say what Obama's apologists herein have maintained he meant:



oops, oh wait, sorry, while this quote does invoke the sense of community and co-operation and interdependence, it still has one group of private citizens doing things to help other groups of private citizens.....
Scott Brown ad,:).
He meant what Lyawatha said in the ad
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

It appears more and more to me based on what I see and hear that Mitt Romney will be the next President. It also is apparent that things like private profit, social risk, and trickle down will be the economic norms for this country for the next 50 years.
It's posts like these that lead me to believe you're far left Scooby. "private profit"?? as opposed to 'PUBLIC profit'?? I really don't understand. I see public profit as the government taking over the student loan business so IT can make a profit vs the private lending institutions that used to do that. Or the gov't take over of health insurance so IT can make a profit vs the private insurance co's that will soon go out of business. Private profit on the other hand is when private companies turn a profit. I mean, who would hate that, other than a marxist?

Social Risk? I obviously did not take the same liberal courses at school as you. Social risk to me is asking the pretty girl to dance. I don't think that's what you mean though.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

The context is obvious if you've paid any attention to what Scoob has written over a longer period than a day or two: the big bank racketeering that foists the risk on the public while retaining the profits. There's nothing wrong with private profit as long as the risks taken to obtain them are incurred privately as well. The issue is when the risk is socialized but the profits aren't. Then the people taking the risks earn huge profits when they're lucky, but we take it in the shorts when they're not, and they laugh all the way to the Swiss bank (or Cayman, or Bahamas, or whatever other offshore haven).
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So Scooby was against all the bail outs too? And he's ok with private co's, like Bain Cap investing in companies while if they go down, Bain loses. But against public investing like when Obama loans millions to Solyndra and when it went down, we wer're the ones getting the shaft. Scooby is more Libertarian that I thought.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I'm pretty sure Scooby was against the bailouts and stated it on here many times
Yeah, but I still can't shake the feeling that it was based on, "I hope they stop the bailouts just so everything grinds to a halt and they can see how stupid they're being."
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Outside of the Armed Forces, what (effective) organization has 9 layers of management? (in other words, not only does the government have too many departments, it also has too many layers!! :eek:

also, you assume that a manager does nothing else except manage, which generally is not the case. Client service supervisors also handle calls that are beyond the competence of first-line client service personnel, for example...in most (private) organizations with which I am familiar, managers both manage and also do other work too. Engineers manage secretaries and interns and research assistants and also do engineering.....etc.
Where did I assume that? I didn't say anything about who did what work. If you have people reporting to you, you spend some amount of time managing them so you are a manager, and someone at your level in the hierarchy is in a "layer of management."

Whatever. Oh, and my numbers were off, too - missed a decimal, so it only takes 8 layers. blah blah blah.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Today I learned on the internet that all the previous US presidents added 6.3 trillion dollars to the debt, while President Barack Hussein Obama added 6.5 trillion in one term! No wonder he wants to tax every citizen into submission to pay for mandatory lesbian training camps. Worst president EVER.

i could work there!! i chew muff like junior soprano! :D
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Today I learned on the internet that all the previous US presidents added 6.3 trillion dollars to the debt, while President Barack Hussein Obama added 6.5 trillion in one term! No wonder he wants to tax every citizen into submission to pay for mandatory lesbian training camps. Worst president EVER.
I wonder if they use Dutch Boy paint for the walls and ceilings?
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='512' height='340'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-24-2012/back-in-black---campaign-fibs'>Back in Black - Campaign Fibs</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:512px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:416874' width='512' height='288' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

Nutella 2012!
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='512' height='340'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-24-2012/back-in-black---campaign-fibs'>Back in Black - Campaign Fibs</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:512px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:416874' width='512' height='288' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

Nutella 2012!

So, building a business you do by yourself, but running a 4 minute mile takes a village? And Obama is the socialist? Really?
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Leaving aside the argument of whether those are valid exercises of federal authority, keep in mind that net (federal + state) taxation only increases if people want more services than they did before. Otherwise, even if we were still under the Articles of Confederation and the states had all the power, the states would be the ones taxing for those services. State politicians get a lot of mileage out of criticizing the federal government for high taxes, but because the federal rather than state governments are performing those tasks, the states skate.

It would be really interesting if we devolved powers for things like health and education back onto the states -- ended all the federal programs and let the states either create their own programs or perhaps form coalitions with other like-value states. Under that system you would expect higher taxes and superior services in the blue states and lower taxes and inferior services in the red states, and people would vote with their feet. All partisan snark aside, that would be an interesting arrangement of powers, and perhaps someday that's what people through their reps will enact. But it's not where we are right now.

Taxation increases if a majority of voters want more services than they did before. "The people" only have to be 50.1% of the voting public. And our current trajectory all but assures that for decades to come at least 50.1% of the people will always vote themselves more services.

As we see with the war, new government agencies etc. the government can not only enact the legislation, they also have ability to manage demand too. They can spend money on other things, tell people if taxes don't go up your welfare will be reduced and they have the votes. And yes, you can replace the word welfare with medicare, subsidized housing, veterans benefits and a hundred other programs and the result is the same. I didn't include the "Local Version" of the same gameshow but just substitute a local function for welfare and presto, you get the same answer.

As for your red/blue world, who is paying the higher taxes in the blue states? By your analogy, the most efficient organization is invariably the one producing the worst products and has the least compensated people. If you truly believe the only way to provide quality services to the public is to continually spend more money then you continue to show a disregard for those who pay the taxes.

We don't have to disregard one group or the other, I refuse to believe end results could only get worse if we cut down the size of the operation providing it. There is a point at which an organization gets so big nobody can tell what is right or wrong...BAC would be a good example...huge, lots of scale, big budgets etc. but they do stuff like put fees on debit cards in the middle of a recession right after Dodd-Frank...nobody could explain how they ever came up with that brainstorm...they are so big nobody knows what is going on and they are a fraction the size of the federal government, have a relatively thin org chart and are in only one industry.

The IRS can't collect $365B a year; there is $60B in medicare fraud a year...that isn't because nobody can figure out how to collect or prevent fraud. We've all seen the articles on how many mispayments the government makes a year...think Walmart has the problem to the same degree?
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Federal taxes should be 5%. Mass state should be 20%. Education should be local, for example. People can freely move to where jobs are and society gives them what they want/expect/are willing to pay for as said society.

Welfare is for all intents a law enforcement expense. If those in the ghetto weren't getting paid to make babies they'd be stealing. 50yrs has taught us that. Guns & Butter.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top