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Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
- Thread starter joecct
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Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Walrus
You MUST have a government before you can tax. Those with better educations than I can refute this but:
The first government was a local strongman who, for his protection of you, your family, and your way of life, assessed a "tax", on your production.
Eventually the strongman was deposed or ceded (some) power to a local assembly that made rules for the general betterment of the group.
Eventually some stronger strongman grouped the stongmen together and the had a bigger group. The stonger guy assessed fees to the stongmen for his protection and they passed the fees along to me.
Eventually some sort of representative government takes place - either by violent (the usual way) or peaceful ways and we end up with something akin to what we have now.
Without taxes and fees the government would not exist. However, you need a government to create the taxes and fees.
Walrus
You MUST have a government before you can tax. Those with better educations than I can refute this but:
The first government was a local strongman who, for his protection of you, your family, and your way of life, assessed a "tax", on your production.
Eventually the strongman was deposed or ceded (some) power to a local assembly that made rules for the general betterment of the group.
Eventually some stronger strongman grouped the stongmen together and the had a bigger group. The stonger guy assessed fees to the stongmen for his protection and they passed the fees along to me.
Eventually some sort of representative government takes place - either by violent (the usual way) or peaceful ways and we end up with something akin to what we have now.
Without taxes and fees the government would not exist. However, you need a government to create the taxes and fees.
bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Seems to be the only one brought up when some toolbag talks about how 47% of the country "doesn't pay any taxes" to justify cutting Scrooge McDuck's tax burden.
Yeah as Income tax is the only tax their is
Seems to be the only one brought up when some toolbag talks about how 47% of the country "doesn't pay any taxes" to justify cutting Scrooge McDuck's tax burden.
P
Priceless
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Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
You'll pry his lucky dime from his cold dead hands!
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
I know you're pulling my leg, but even the die hard libertarian realizes that the federal government needs to do some things that the states cannot do:
country defense
regulate interstate commerce
standards of immigration
And whatever else is contained in Article 1. For that, it needs to collect taxes and/or fees to fund such activities.
But why in heaven's name do we need a
Department of Education?
Department of Health and Human Services?
plus a number of Agencies?
Over time, the federal government has usurped the states' powers and the states let them do it. As more power is usurped, taxes have to increase to fund the enterprise.
I wish the GOP had nominated someone other than Mitt - someone who truly believes in a limited federal government. Then the election would have been a choice between someone who believes that the federal government has all the answers and someone who believes the several states should manage their own affairs.
Hardly!
I know you're pulling my leg, but even the die hard libertarian realizes that the federal government needs to do some things that the states cannot do:
country defense
regulate interstate commerce
standards of immigration
And whatever else is contained in Article 1. For that, it needs to collect taxes and/or fees to fund such activities.
But why in heaven's name do we need a
Department of Education?
Department of Health and Human Services?
plus a number of Agencies?
Over time, the federal government has usurped the states' powers and the states let them do it. As more power is usurped, taxes have to increase to fund the enterprise.
I wish the GOP had nominated someone other than Mitt - someone who truly believes in a limited federal government. Then the election would have been a choice between someone who believes that the federal government has all the answers and someone who believes the several states should manage their own affairs.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
it's not "lucky". The #1 dime is merely a symbol of his hard work and perseverance. The magic hourglass was "lucky", but that story was scripted before the Scrooge character was fully developed. And if you're not referencing Barks (or Rosa, in a pinch), I don't even want to hear about it.
it's not "lucky". The #1 dime is merely a symbol of his hard work and perseverance. The magic hourglass was "lucky", but that story was scripted before the Scrooge character was fully developed. And if you're not referencing Barks (or Rosa, in a pinch), I don't even want to hear about it.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Leaving aside the argument of whether those are valid exercises of federal authority, keep in mind that net (federal + state) taxation only increases if people want more services than they did before. Otherwise, even if we were still under the Articles of Confederation and the states had all the power, the states would be the ones taxing for those services. State politicians get a lot of mileage out of criticizing the federal government for high taxes, but because the federal rather than state governments are performing those tasks, the states skate.
It would be really interesting if we devolved powers for things like health and education back onto the states -- ended all the federal programs and let the states either create their own programs or perhaps form coalitions with other like-value states. Under that system you would expect higher taxes and superior services in the blue states and lower taxes and inferior services in the red states, and people would vote with their feet. All partisan snark aside, that would be an interesting arrangement of powers, and perhaps someday that's what people through their reps will enact. But it's not where we are right now.
Leaving aside the argument of whether those are valid exercises of federal authority, keep in mind that net (federal + state) taxation only increases if people want more services than they did before. Otherwise, even if we were still under the Articles of Confederation and the states had all the power, the states would be the ones taxing for those services. State politicians get a lot of mileage out of criticizing the federal government for high taxes, but because the federal rather than state governments are performing those tasks, the states skate.
It would be really interesting if we devolved powers for things like health and education back onto the states -- ended all the federal programs and let the states either create their own programs or perhaps form coalitions with other like-value states. Under that system you would expect higher taxes and superior services in the blue states and lower taxes and inferior services in the red states, and people would vote with their feet. All partisan snark aside, that would be an interesting arrangement of powers, and perhaps someday that's what people through their reps will enact. But it's not where we are right now.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Am a big beliver in the constitution.
But I do seriously wonder whether the founding fathers would believe that...the precise role of the government 200 years into the future should remain strictly as outlined...or should be modestly adapted to change while ensuring the spirit of the doc remains. My guess is that they had more humility than to assume that they made the exactly perfect govt for eternity.
Am a big beliver in the constitution.
But I do seriously wonder whether the founding fathers would believe that...the precise role of the government 200 years into the future should remain strictly as outlined...or should be modestly adapted to change while ensuring the spirit of the doc remains. My guess is that they had more humility than to assume that they made the exactly perfect govt for eternity.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
I was referencing the Disney series. I'm pretty sure he called it his "lucky" dime at least once on that show.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
We tried that before. "Separate but (Un)Equal" isn't Constitutional.
We tried that before. "Separate but (Un)Equal" isn't Constitutional.
Fixed
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
One thing I would like to hear from Romney would be about reorganizing the government agencies both to improve the delivery of services and also to reduce duplication and waste. fifteen Departments is totally absurd.
For example, the State Department and part of the Defense Department could be consolidated into a Department of Foreign Relations, then when we say "speak softly and carry a big stick" it's the same people doing both! or maybe you also include Homeland Security so that you integrate national defense abroad and national defense at home? not sure.
and to have a Dept of Commerce and Dept of Interior and Dept of Transportation and Dept of Agriculture and Dept of Energy...maybe a single Department of Resource Management or some such?
and to have separate Dept of Education and Dept of Labor and Dept of HHS and Dept of HUD? How about a single Department of Human Services or some such?
It seems to me we only need five or six Departments, tops!
Treasury
Justice
Diplomacy/Security
Resource Management
Infrastructure
Human Services
Or rename them to suit your fancy. I'm thinking of functions, not objectives.
One thing I would like to hear from Romney would be about reorganizing the government agencies both to improve the delivery of services and also to reduce duplication and waste. fifteen Departments is totally absurd.
For example, the State Department and part of the Defense Department could be consolidated into a Department of Foreign Relations, then when we say "speak softly and carry a big stick" it's the same people doing both! or maybe you also include Homeland Security so that you integrate national defense abroad and national defense at home? not sure.
and to have a Dept of Commerce and Dept of Interior and Dept of Transportation and Dept of Agriculture and Dept of Energy...maybe a single Department of Resource Management or some such?
and to have separate Dept of Education and Dept of Labor and Dept of HHS and Dept of HUD? How about a single Department of Human Services or some such?
It seems to me we only need five or six Departments, tops!
Treasury
Justice
Diplomacy/Security
Resource Management
Infrastructure
Human Services
Or rename them to suit your fancy. I'm thinking of functions, not objectives.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Besides the Second Morrill Act still allows separate but equal education of white and colored students.
FreshFish
Think you need a War Department and a State Department. I don't want diplomats interfering when I'm trying to blow the bad guys to smitereens, and I don't want a general telling me how to kowtow before some commie dictator.
Whoa! If state N wants to have a educational system that requires year round schooling and state M says 180 days with 3 months off, that is not unconstitutional.
Besides the Second Morrill Act still allows separate but equal education of white and colored students.
FreshFish
Think you need a War Department and a State Department. I don't want diplomats interfering when I'm trying to blow the bad guys to smitereens, and I don't want a general telling me how to kowtow before some commie dictator.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Not opposed, just thinking about what would make more sense, work better, and be more economical than what we have now. Generals and diplomats should be sending a co-ordinated message; either the President provides that or it is done inside the Department, either could work.
Modern management techniques (there is a lot more science behind them than many people realize) indicate that a maximum of six delegatees is about optimum. Fifteen is way too bloated.
Think you need a War Department and a State Department. I don't want diplomats interfering when I'm trying to blow the bad guys to smitereens, and I don't want a general telling me how to kowtow before some commie dictator.
Not opposed, just thinking about what would make more sense, work better, and be more economical than what we have now. Generals and diplomats should be sending a co-ordinated message; either the President provides that or it is done inside the Department, either could work.
Modern management techniques (there is a lot more science behind them than many people realize) indicate that a maximum of six delegatees is about optimum. Fifteen is way too bloated.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Interesting...if each person in the Federal government had exactly 6 direct reports, 9 layers of management would give you 1M first-level managers. If each of the first-level managers had only 3 direct reports, that would be the size of the current Federal government (4.4M total). I'm guessing the current bureaucracy manages to have more than 6 direct reports on average AND more than 9 layers of management...
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Outside of the Armed Forces, what (effective) organization has 9 layers of management? (in other words, not only does the government have too many departments, it also has too many layers!!
also, you assume that a manager does nothing else except manage, which generally is not the case. Client service supervisors also handle calls that are beyond the competence of first-line client service personnel, for example...in most (private) organizations with which I am familiar, managers both manage and also do other work too. Engineers manage secretaries and interns and research assistants and also do engineering.....etc.
Outside of the Armed Forces, what (effective) organization has 9 layers of management? (in other words, not only does the government have too many departments, it also has too many layers!!
also, you assume that a manager does nothing else except manage, which generally is not the case. Client service supervisors also handle calls that are beyond the competence of first-line client service personnel, for example...in most (private) organizations with which I am familiar, managers both manage and also do other work too. Engineers manage secretaries and interns and research assistants and also do engineering.....etc.
jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
I just took the isidewith.com online quiz, and was very disappointed to learn that I'm only 62% aligned with Jimmy McMillan. As I believe the most important qualification for elected office is "awesome facial hair," I had hoped to find myself more closely aligned with the best man for the job.
I just took the isidewith.com online quiz, and was very disappointed to learn that I'm only 62% aligned with Jimmy McMillan. As I believe the most important qualification for elected office is "awesome facial hair," I had hoped to find myself more closely aligned with the best man for the job.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
Today I learned on the internet that all the previous US presidents added 6.3 trillion dollars to the debt, while President Barack Hussein Obama added 6.5 trillion in one term! No wonder he wants to tax every citizen into submission to pay for mandatory lesbian training camps. Worst president EVER.
Today I learned on the internet that all the previous US presidents added 6.3 trillion dollars to the debt, while President Barack Hussein Obama added 6.5 trillion in one term! No wonder he wants to tax every citizen into submission to pay for mandatory lesbian training camps. Worst president EVER.
bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!
How much are these lesbian training camps?
How much are these lesbian training camps?
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