Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Since the Airplane / Starship was an SF band, I always thought it was SF.

Wiki agrees with me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Built_This_City but with several cautions that it could be somewhere else, but no mention of Detroit.

Which is why I said "any city," in the same way that a band goes into any city with "Helllllllllllllllllo X."

Anyway, San Francisco was built on gold, hookers, gambling, and hard-boiled detective novels, all of which are cooler than children's music.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Boy, that's a reach. To me, the comments are identical: "you did not do this alone." And the veracity of that statement is far more obvious for a business owner than an Olympic athlete.

What's also really obvious is that when Romney made that statement he wasn't in any way criticizing the athletes, just reminding them that there are a lot of people behind every success. Why is that so offensive when it comes to business? Everybody else on the planet recognizes that they have had help getting to where they are -- why do we have to pretend that when it comes to business, the winner is a Nietzschean Übermensch who did it all Himself?

If you really think that is my objection - that I honestly believe that businesses did it all on their own - then we're just talking past each other. It's all about tone, and those two statements (Romney and Obama) have nowhere close to the same tone.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

It's all about tone, and those two statements (Romney and Obama) have nowhere close to the same tone.

I do not see Obama's tone as hostility, I see it as attempting to counter this runaway train of an idea that if you succeed in America you are a superior human being who should not be shackled by any obligation to the rest of the common herd. That isn't hostility, it's looking for balance.

The opposite is what is hostile -- the "I'm alright Jack" idea has led to terrible policies over the last thirty years that have increased misery and, ironically, destabilized even the gains of those who made a windfall off of them. The apotheosis of that idea is this -- withdrawing into splendid isolation and letting the world burn.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

If you really think that is my objection - that I honestly believe that businesses did it all on their own - then we're just talking past each other. It's all about tone, and those two statements (Romney and Obama) have nowhere close to the same tone.

Tone?

LOL. If that's your problem with what he said then my belief that there is no hope for society is becoming more and more true every day.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

If you really think that is my objection - that I honestly believe that businesses did it all on their own - then we're just talking past each other. It's all about tone, and those two statements (Romney and Obama) have nowhere close to the same tone.

Marge: Homey, quit tossing.
Homer: Sorry, Marge. But, it's just that I'm still steamed up about that jerk Flanders. Lousy bragging know-it-all show-off.
Marge: What exactly did he say?
Homer: Get this. He said--Now--He said--Well, it wasn't so much what he said, it was how he said it.
Marge: Well, how did he say it?
Homer: Well, he--
Marge: Was he angry?
Homer: No.
Marge: Was he rude?
Homer: Okay, okay, it wasn't how he said it either. But the message was loud and clear: Our family stinks!

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I do not see Obama's tone as hostility, I see it as attempting to counter this runaway train of an idea that if you succeed in America you are a superior human being who should not be shackled by any obligation to the rest of the common herd. That isn't hostility, it's looking for balance.

The opposite is what is hostile -- the "I'm alright Jack" idea has led to terrible policies over the last thirty years that have increased misery and, ironically, destabilized even the gains of those who made a windfall off of them. The apotheosis of that idea is this -- withdrawing into splendid isolation and letting the world burn.

So you agree that his aim was to take business owners down a peg or two. That's pretty much my whole argument. The only difference of opinion is whether business owners *should* be taken down a peg or two.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So you agree that his aim was to take business owners down a peg or two.

No, I'm saying the 19th century political philosophy that puts business owners above everyone else (and which Romney is hiding behind) is the target. I doubt many business owners actually ascribe to it; it is much more one of those Masters of Universe fantasies that finance guys like to masturbate to. Small business people tend to identify with the middle class, not the banksters.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

No, I'm saying the 19th century political philosophy that puts business owners above everyone else (and which Romney is hiding behind) is the target. I doubt many business owners actually ascribe to it; it is much more one of those Masters of Universe fantasies that finance guys like to masturbate to. Small business people tend to identify with the middle class, not the banksters.

Then why was Obama's comment directed specifically at business owners themselves? Why did he say, "If *you* own a business, *you* didn't build that infrastructure..." instead of, "if you subscribe to the philosophy that puts business owners above everyone else, you need to understand that business owners didn't build that infrastructure."

Either it was ridiculously clumsy and in-artfully stated, or his supporters are just trying to rationalize what he said to be something else after the fact.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Then why was Obama's comment directed specifically at business owners themselves? Why did he say, "If *you* own a business, *you* didn't build that infrastructure..." instead of, "if you subscribe to the philosophy that puts business owners above everyone else, you need to understand that business owners didn't build that infrastructure."

Either it was ridiculously clumsy and in-artfully stated, or his supporters are just trying to rationalize what he said to be something else after the fact.

Or else his opponents are trying to fit the situation to their preconceptions.

I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns on this. If you believe Obama has some double-secret conspiracy against capitalism the way wol4erine does, and that the very absence of evidence for it proves it, then there's not much I can say to dissuade you. If instead you look at the measures Obama's enacted over his term, I think you'll conclude he's farther to the right on economic issues than the GOP was in the 60's and 70's. Maybe that's all a super subtle fake out to set up his second term's Bolshevism, but I think it's a lot easier to assume that all the rhetoric about Obama's economic leftism is just so much self-serving electioneering by the other side.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I don't know what it was that caused the two of you to embrace marxism and disdain capitalism the way you do. I feel sorry for the both of you.

Don't be a jerkoff. Nothing I've ever posted would suggest anything close to that.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Don't be a jerkoff. Nothing I've ever posted would suggest anything close to that.

Remember, in wol4ine's world there are only two values -- 100% approval, and then everything less than that, which is 0%.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

...but I think it's a lot easier to assume that all the rhetoric about Obama's economic leftism is just so much self-serving electioneering by the other side.

As well as a degree of self-serving electioneering by his own side. Obama does have to play to a base that is significantly further to the left than he has governed (and that is, at times, a bit disillusioned by that).

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I do not see Obama's tone as hostility

I don't know about outright hostility, but it is true that the thing that has stood out is the negative statement Obama made about what the businessman didn't do, vs. a positive statement about what the community and government that built the foundation did do. Whether the negative or the positive statement is fundamentally more effective, I couldn't say. Lynah's not the first person I've seen argue that Obama has a personal rhetorical failing of tending toward the negative.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Then why was Obama's comment directed specifically at business owners themselves? Why did he say, "If *you* own a business, *you* didn't build that infrastructure..." instead of, "if you subscribe to the philosophy that puts business owners above everyone else, you need to understand that business owners didn't build that infrastructure.".

Probably because he didn't expect millions to pour over 6 words for days on end.

Either it was ridiculously clumsy and in-artfully stated, or his supporters are just trying to rationalize what he said to be something else after the fact.

Regarding the latter, many do think that Obama intended 'that' meant roads (perhaps you?)...which for some reason makes the former a crime.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I don't know about outright hostility, but it is true that the thing that has stood out is the negative statement Obama made about what the businessman didn't do, vs. a positive statement about what the community and government that built the foundation did do. Whether the negative or the positive statement is fundamentally more effective, I couldn't say. Lynah's not the first person I've seen argue that Obama has a personal rhetorical failing of tending toward the negative.

Why do people consistently see the glass as one quarter empty? Again, read the passage again:

Somebody invested in roads and bridges (positive). If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that...somebody else made that happen (negative). The Internet didn’t get invented on its own...government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet (positive). The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together (positive).

It is more positive than negative and again, I don't think he expected everyone to focus on a few words and ignore the rest of the speech (including its stated purpose). In fact, we aren't discussing a speech where Obama was blasting Romney but rather a speech (whether you agree with it or not) on how government benefits society. I'm actually surprised he's not more negative.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fLZpMFbxyxU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Touching story.

Except he has received $1.3 million in government money. Not to mention that most of his workforce was educated at a public school, they commute to and from work on public roads and we have an economic structure that allows you to start a company and turn it into something. But hey, it's a nice story.

 

[walrus]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Except he has received $1.3 million in government money. Not to mention that most of his workforce was educated at a public school, they commute to and from work on public roads and we have an economic structure that allows you to start a company and turn it into something. But hey, it's a nice story.

I'll bet his company never paid a nickle in taxes either

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Naturally someone researched this and it turns out that the government didn't create the Internet either....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444464304577539063008406518.html?mod=opinion_newsreel

Except it did...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...o-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/

Seriously, are you even trying anymore?

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Except he has received $1.3 million in government money. Not to mention that most of his workforce was educated at a public school, they commute to and from work on public roads and we have an economic structure that allows you to start a company and turn it into something. But hey, it's a nice story.

*sigh*
so, did you start a company and employ people so they can pay into the system too and support folks who sit around all day and type on the innertubes?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I'll bet his company never paid a nickle in taxes either

Thank you for proving my point. His company paid taxes, which combined with mine and yours and everyone else's allowed the government to fund that school and build those roads. If the government hadn't done it, who would have?