Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Actually I was responding to claims that Akin and Ryan were exactly the same and by inference, this is a big hit for Ryan, whereas Joe Biden's telling a black audience that Romney and Ryan will put them back in chains largely gets a free pass.

You believe everything the conservatives tell you. NO ONE GAVE BIDEN A FREE PASS. No one. It's your imagination.

Meanwhile in addition to the numerous articles I cited we have the facts of the case.

Ryan and Akin have sponsored two bills together that cite the same ideas Akin talks about in his interview. Ryan and Akin's positions on the issue talked about in Akin's comments are exactly the same. Given that evidence it seems pretty clear that Akin and Ryan are no different and anyone that concludes otherwise is completely ignoring the facts.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I'm pretty sure that on both sides laws regarding rape and abortion are issues that are pretty important to everybody, even the voters of Missouri.

We've seen people make major gaffes in the past. Sometimes it sinks them, sometimes they can recover. Time will tell which it is for Akin, assuming he doesn't step down, which it looks like he won't. Political history is littered with verbal stumbles. Some prove fatal, some become footnotes. Of course with the media going nuts on this one, it's less likely to become a footnote anytime soon. Listened to NPR driving home last night and driving in this morning, and they were all over this topic, whereas when Biden made his gaffe, it was barely mentioned if at all.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

The language was inserted to take into consideration "statutory rape," where the female may consent.

So now we have a form of rape that's consensual?

Sorry, not on this planet. As Obama said, rape is rape. There is no consent.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

You believe everything the conservatives tell you. NO ONE GAVE BIDEN A FREE PASS. No one. It's your imagination.

Meanwhile in addition to the numerous articles I cited we have the facts of the case.

Ryan and Akin have sponsored two bills together that cite the same ideas Akin talks about in his interview. Ryan and Akin's positions on the issue talked about in Akin's comments are exactly the same. Given that evidence it seems pretty clear that Akin and Ryan are no different and anyone that concludes otherwise is completely ignoring the facts.

Biden did get a free pass, with the media, except a few outlets, spending most of their time trying to put it into a context where it wasn't so damaging to Biden. To think otherwise is sheer fantasy. Virtually nobody even discussed the possibility of Biden stepping down.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

So now we have a form of rape that's consensual?

Sorry, not on this planet. As Obama said, rape is rape. There is no consent.

Even by your standards, that's moronic and ignorant. So anxious are you to help His Panderness that you make a point you know (or should know) is totally fallacious. I'm wondering if you got your knickers in a twist when Whoopi Goldberg defended Roman Polanski by suggesting what he did to a drugged teenager wasn't "rape, rape." That's different, right?

Statutory rape is a status crime, which holds it doesn't matter if the lady involved consented or not. It's rape because of her age.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I'm still trying to figure out how Ryan's position on abortion is different from Akin's.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

We've seen people make major gaffes in the past. Sometimes it sinks them, sometimes they can recover. Time will tell which it is for Akin, assuming he doesn't step down, which it looks like he won't. Political history is littered with verbal stumbles. Some prove fatal, some become footnotes. Of course with the media going nuts on this one, it's less likely to become a footnote anytime soon. Listened to NPR driving home last night and driving in this morning, and they were all over this topic, whereas when Biden made his gaffe, it was barely mentioned if at all.

I would not call Akin's statement a "gaffe." It is something he believes. The effective result of the policy is what has caused the furor. It's not "smearing" to talk about the objective legal consequences of political positions.

Whether "the media" spends more time on conservative than liberal sins is in the eye of the beholder. If it really irks you then find a media outlet that you are more comfortable with. I can't even find one for US news anymore -- I watch the BBC and Al Jazeera and France24 and DW when I want news about particular places in the world; there is no news source remaining in the states that I find of value for anything but entertainment. It sounds like every time you turn on NPR it tweaks you the way FNC tweaks me. We each have a solution for that...

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

These things can change the outcome of elections. In 1990 the Texas GOP nominated a millionaire by the name of Clayton Williams for governor. And he was cruising to election over Ann Richards when he made some sort of crack (paraphrasing): "If a woman can't avoid being raped, she should lay back and enjoy it." And at some joint appearance, he also ostentatiously refused to shake her hand. Richards won narrowly, 49-47. Actions have consequences and words have meaning.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Actually I was responding to claims that Akin and Ryan were exactly the same and by inference, this is a big hit for Ryan, whereas Joe Biden's telling a black audience that Romney and Ryan will put them back in chains largely gets a free pass.

You never actually responded to those claims, at least not with anything other than "no he's not."

We've shown you, through citing facts, that he shares Akin's stance of no abortions for rape victims. You've shown nothing.


As far as Biden's gaffe, is it really any different than the BS and fear mongering that many, many conservatives spew about gay marriage, birth control and other topics to rile their base?

"Obama wants to take your guns away!" comes to mind.

Every report I saw on Biden's idiocy criticized him for it.

Akin's statement was worse and more offensive and he's being treated more harshly in accordance. And as Kep pointed out, his statement is a belief that could result in laws being enacted in the future that effect us all should he win office. I'm glad that his and the GOP's stance on this is being exposed to the harsh light of day.

Not that it'll matter to many of the sheep.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I would not call Akin's statement a "gaffe." It is something he believes. The effective result of the policy is what has caused the furor.

Whether "the media" spends more time on conservative than liberal sins is in the eye of the beholder. If it really irks you then find a media outlet that you are more comfortable with. I can't even find one for US news anymore -- I watch the BBC and Al Jazeera and France24 and DW when I want news about particular places in the world; there is no substantive news source remaining in the states that I find of value. It sounds like every time you turn on NPR it tweaks you the way FNC tweaks me. We each have a solution for that...

Naturally. Akin gets no benefit of the doubt. While Aunt Blabby, dropping G's and affecting a southern accent, talking about putting black folks in "chains" is merely a figure of speech, something he didn't mean to be taken literally. And for which we should "understand" what he "really" meant. I believe the technical term here (rarely used on Al Jazeera, BTW) is "phonus balonus."

No sensible person is defending Akin's remarks. They were galactically stupid. But about 20% of pro-lifers believe that there should be no exceptions, even for rape, incest and life of the mother. This is definitely a minority point of view. However, there's no evidence that a significant number of people holding that view do so because they think there's some biological function that prevents conception from rape. Except for those women who reallly "wanted" it. Thus, the effort to elide the difference, especially in the case of Ryan, is a smear.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

http://www.boston.com/news/politics...st-abortion/F175Qx17gaXyUjVehfmcFL/story.html

While Republican officials stressed that the plank does not go into granular details, saying that they are better left to the states, the language of the plank seems to leave little room for exceptions to the abortion ban. It states that ‘‘the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed.’’


It would now seem, that the GOP = Akin on this issue. (not that we didn't already know this)

Maybe not the "medical reasoning" part of Akin's argument, but the same end result in policy.

Gay marriage on one side and this on the other? The lines are drawn.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

http://www.boston.com/news/politics...st-abortion/F175Qx17gaXyUjVehfmcFL/story.html

While Republican officials stressed that the plank does not go into granular details, saying that they are better left to the states, the language of the plank seems to leave little room for exceptions to the abortion ban. It states that ‘‘the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed.’’


It would now seem, that the GOP = Akin on this issue. (not that we didn't already know this)

Maybe not the "medical reasoning" part of Akin's argument, but the same end result in policy.

Gay marriage on one side and this on the other? The lines are drawn.

Yes they have, haven't they? The only difference is that the gay "couple" still lives.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

http://www.boston.com/news/politics...st-abortion/F175Qx17gaXyUjVehfmcFL/story.html

While Republican officials stressed that the plank does not go into granular details, saying that they are better left to the states, the language of the plank seems to leave little room for exceptions to the abortion ban. It states that ‘‘the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed.’’


It would now seem, that the GOP = Akin on this issue.

Maybe not the "medical reasoning" part of Akin's argument, but the same end result in policy.

Gay marriage on one side and this on the other? The lines are drawn.

You guys have absolutely no shame. Being against abortions for rape, incest and the life of the mother does not mean an endorsement of Akin's nonsense. But when you're in high moral dugeon, trying to save the presidency of Barack Carter, anything goes.

Nice bit of nostalgia, however, referring to "planks" in a "platform."

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

No sensible person is defending Akin's remarks. They were galactically stupid. But about 20% of pro-lifers believe that there should be no exceptions, even for rape, incest and life of the mother. This is definitely a minority point of view. However, there's no evidence that a significant number of people holding that view do so because they think there's some biological function that prevents conception from rape. Except for those women who reallly "wanted" it. Thus, the effort to elide the difference, especially in the case of Ryan, is a smear.

Do you have anything at all to back that up? Your party just adopted personhood (essentially) as part of its platform.

Maybe the "majority" of you should get control of your party.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I'm still trying to figure out how Ryan's position on abortion is different from Akin's.

Then you're not really very bright, are you?

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Do you have anything at all to back that up? Your party just adopted personhood (essentially) as part of its platform.

Maybe the "majority" of you should get control of your party.

The pro-life plank has been part of the GOP platform at least since the 1980's, just like the abortion plank has been part of the Democrat platform for just about as long.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Then you're not really very bright, are you?

So other than the offensive language, how do Ryan's and Akin's position on abortion differ?

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Then you're not really very bright, are you?

Enlighten us.

Neither you nor Bob has been able to distinguish a difference between them in terms of policy.

Sure, their presentation and reasoning may be very different, but the end result in terms of a law, would be the same.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Bob's still carrying the water for Akin out here, so much so one has to conclude he feels the same way as Akin on this issue or why the full throated defense?

So, lets count up the deceptions:

1) The Straw Man Argument. Continually arguing against the statement that Ryan has the same view as Akin regarding a women's ability to conceive after being raped. Problem is, nobody has made this statement. Any attempts to have Bob or Old Pio back up this assertion met with silence.

2) Ignoring The Inconvenient Facts. A play straight out of the George W Bush playbook. No acknowledgement that Ryan and Akin co-sponsored legislation to force rape victims to have their rapist's child. A delusional tactic based on the premise that if he only doesn't admit this fact it won't be true.

3) Evening The Score. Joe Biden making a hyperbolic statement about putting people back in chains somehow equates to having the govt tell rape victims how to handle their choice in this matter. Even though slavery has been outlawed for 150 years and there's no attempt to bring it back, while Akin and Ryan's law would in fact have real life, current day consequences for these unfortunate woman.

A lot of people would like to think Bob is just being a partisan warrior. However, me thinks he protests too much.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Do you have anything at all to back that up? Your party just adopted personhood (essentially) as part of its platform.

Maybe the "majority" of you should get control of your party.

Now you're trying to smear me. It's not my party, so knock that sh*t off right now. Nobody, except you in this instance, knows or cares anything about platforms any more. They are a quaint artifact of an earlier day. No candidate runs on them. No candidate is bound by them. But in your strenuous efforts to smear all pro-lifers as morons, too, suddenly the Republican platform is a BFD.

Which assertion are you questioning? That only about 20% of pro-lifers believe in "no exception," or that among those who do, they haven't arrived at that position based on Akin's mythical "biological contraception?" Just as I have nothing to "back up" my assertion that practically nobody believes in this magical method of preventing rape-caused pregnancies, neither do you have any evidence that it's a wide spread belief. But that hasn't stopped you and the rest of the libstain hypocrites from going on a smear-fest, has it?