Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

In Michigan, former 9 term rep and current Washington lobbyist Pete Hoekstra beat back a tea party challenger in Clark Durant Tuesday. Probably has the best chance of the Republicans that ran, but I don't think he's likely to win. Stabenow doesn't really stand out either way in the Senate, so you're stuck attacking her as being some kind of Washington insider after two terms, which is hardly Hoekstra's strong point.

Is it realistic to talk about a Republican winning in Michigan, given the enormous power of the teachers' unions?

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Is it realistic to talk about a Republican winning in Michigan, given the enormous power of the teachers' unions?

Snyder won the governorship 58-39% in 2010, and the Republicans hold the state house 64-46 and senate 26-12.

I'm not sure how much state power the MEA really has anymore anyway. Engler did some of the things Walker's doing recently back in the 90's (strikes were illegal before, but teachers said some BS about "debating when the school year began" to claim they weren't striking. Engler gave school districts sole authority on deciding that. They took private contracting and choice of health care provider off the negotiating table as well. Before that, the schools had to go through the MEA who charged them an arm and leg and then foisted it all of on Blue Cross anyway) We've had school choice/vouchers and charter schools (3rd most behind California and Arizona) since the 90's as well.

Snyder's been picking away at them some as well, but much more low key compared to Kasich in Ohio or Walker.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Snyder won the governorship 58-39% in 2010, and the Republicans hold the state house 64-46 and senate 26-12.

I'm not sure how much state power the MEA really has anymore anyway. Engler did some of the things Walker's doing recently back in the 90's (strikes were illegal before, but teachers said some BS about "debating when the school year began" to claim they weren't striking. Engler gave school districts sole authority on deciding that. They took private contracting and choice of health care provider off the negotiating table as well. Before that, the schools had to go through the MEA who charged them an arm and leg and then foisted it all of on Blue Cross anyway) We've had school choice/vouchers and charter schools (3rd most behind California and Arizona) since the 90's as well.

Thanks. Obviously I'm out of date (shut up!).

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Now you're just rabid partisanship right down the line.

The Grand Deal would've given the GOP 98% of what it wanted. The Tea Party scuttled it over the 2% they didn't get, and threatened to take the country over a fiscal cliff for absolutely no reason whatsoever until the adults finally stepped in.

The Tea Party is to the GOP what the Green Party was to the Dems. Unfortunately, only one party was smart enough not to let the inmates run the asylum.

Sorry Bob, but when you have wingnuts calling any moderate GOPer a RINO and trying to primary them as not being conservative enough, why the fark should I support them? For fark's sake, Reagan and Nixon wouldn't be conservative enough for the Tea Party if they actually looked at their policies.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

The Grand Deal would've given the GOP 98% of what it wanted. The Tea Party scuttled it over the 2% they didn't get, and threatened to take the country over a fiscal cliff for absolutely no reason whatsoever until the adults finally stepped in.

The Tea Party is to the GOP what the Green Party was to the Dems. Unfortunately, only one party was smart enough not to let the inmates run the asylum.

Sorry Bob, but when you have wingnuts calling any moderate GOPer a RINO and trying to primary them as not being conservative enough, why the fark should I support them? For fark's sake, Reagan and Nixon wouldn't be conservative enough for the Tea Party if they actually looked at their policies.

Nixon would know how to deal with 'em. Selective Service? Tax audits? FBI investigations?

It was Nixon who "persuaded" Pete Rozelle to lift the blackout of sold out NFL games.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

As much as I rail against the current plutocracy (run by both parties), I'm pretty sure it was always like that.

Tea Pot Dome was in 1922. Yazoo River was in 1803.

Twas ever thus.

oh, i wasn't referring to the inside folks. but the industry on the periphery of politics. the ditto, the fox, the msnbc, the sharpton. the angrier the masses are, the more relevant these folks are.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Another sleezy new attack ad from Chicago. Part of a new tone? Next I suppose they'll suggest Romney was on the grassy knoll. Or perhaps complicit in the disappearance of Judge Crater. What a hypocrite this guy is. I guess he assumes nobody will notice.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/obama-ad-alleges-romney-role-in-notorious-tax-scandal/

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Another sleezy new attack ad from Chicago. Part of a new tone? Next I suppose they'll suggest Romney was on the grassy knoll. Or perhaps complicit in the disappearance of Judge Crater. What a hypocrite this guy is. I guess he assumes nobody will notice.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/obama-ad-alleges-romney-role-in-notorious-tax-scandal/

If this is where we are...the GOP got us here. The GOP has been pushing for PACs with shadowy doners that create the vehicles...and escalated the tone with character assassinations of Kerry.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

If this is where we are...the GOP got us here. The GOP has been pushing for PACs with shadowy doners that create the vehicles...and escalated the tone with character assassinations of Kerry.

In this way even "my party's immoral tactics are actually the other party's fault so it's OK". I'm sure the other party agrees in (lack of) principle.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

when you have [people I dislike] calling any moderate GOPer a RINO and trying to primary them as not being conservative enough, why the fark should I support them? For fark's sake, Reagan and Nixon wouldn't be conservative enough for the Tea Party if they actually looked at their policies.

I hope you don't mind if I don't accept anything you say about the TEA Party as authoritative, I'd be surprised if you ever actually had a reasonable conversation with a member and your knowledge is entirely derived from media <strike>propaganda</strike> articles and stories.

From what I've seen and heard, it is not "moderate" Republicans who are being "targeted" because of their "moderation," it is either (a) career lifers who have lost contact with the people of their state (Lugar reportedly spent more time in Washington than in Indiana), or (b) pork lovers who just don't realize that we need to focus government spending on greater efficiency and efficacy. We really don't need to spend as much as we do because government overhead relative to government output is way too high.

I don't have the statistics at my fingertips, but the number of people in government delivering services has grown relative to the population being served, yet individual productivity through improved technology also should be growing. Translation from business-speak to English: more people working less effectively compared to value delivered.

Yes, there is a great deal of substantial value to be delivered by government. The "true" debate is not over "whether" but over "appropriate proportions." Every time a person says "do we have too much?" or "what is the right balance for our times?", the response from the left is wailing and gnashing of teeth and accusations of "starve the children and deprive everyone of healthcare" when that was never proposed to begin with.

If you haven't watched Blumenthal try to answer "how do we create jobs?" I suggest you do: it is very instructive of a mindset.

Once upon a time, reasonable people could accept differences of opinion as legitimate; I'm not sure when any deviation from orthodoxy became such a heinous crime, but the demonization of any difference into pure unadulterated evil and imputation of base motives has really made conversation difficult and compromise almost impossible.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

If this is where we are...the GOP got us here. The GOP has been pushing for PACs with shadowy doners that create the vehicles...and escalated the tone with character assassinations of Kerry.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying that it's okay for one side to do wrong merely because the other side did wrong first? is this kindergarten? sure I broke your leg because you punched my shoulder?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

In this way even "my party's immoral tactics are actually the other party's fault so it's OK". I'm sure the other party agrees in (lack of) principle.

Not sure I am 100% am following but...

If I understand you correctly, are you saying that it's okay for one side to do wrong merely because the other side did wrong first? is this kindergarten? sure I broke your leg because you punched my shoulder?

From what I've seen, the dems would get rid of PACs tomorrow. But if PACS do exist and dems don't use them for what they're most effective (negative campaigning) while the GOP does...dems risk of losing the election, which would also result in absolutely no reason for the GOP to ever want to get rid of PACs.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Fresh Fish is correct that it's a logical error for a poster to attempt to expiate X's actions in the accusation "X has committed this wrong" by saying "Y committed it first." There's even a 12th Century Latin name for it because the Scholastics used to pull it all the time in debates, though that was usually about sin or heresy or my favorite, whether all trees are different and whether "tree-ness" is just in our heads.

Now, if the poster responds to "X has committed this wrong" by saying "Y committed it first" to point out the hypocrisy of Y's defenders complaining about X's adoption of Y's tactics, that's quite valid. Anybody who backed the GOP campaign tactics in the last three elections doesn't have a leg to stand on when they complain about foul play. They may not have invented it, but they perfected it.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I nearly coughed coffee up my nose when I read this article, coming as it did for me right after my post # 630....

Republicans were thrown out of Congress in 2006 for a reason: They'd lost their reform spirit. They twiddled their thumbs on big issues, ran from the entitlement problem, spent, earmarked and were wrapped in scandals. They became more obsessed with power than with solving problems.

The tea party sprang to life as a reaction to Obama overreach. Yet it was equally a response to a wayward GOP[emphasis added]. The grass roots gave a voice to a new generation of reformers and rewarded at the polls Republicans who had the courage to join in that movement.

The electorate today draws a very clear distinction between the old and the new. Certain political names are now touchstones for reform. In the Senate, they are the likes of Tom Coburn or Jim DeMint or Marco Rubio. In the House, it is Paul Ryan or Jeff Flake or Mike Pence. In the states, it is Govs. Chris Christie, Scott Walker, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley.

These Republicans can be relied on to oppose failed liberal ideas. But their real accomplishment—and what has propelled them to such standing, and inspired voters—has been their willingness to oppose the (still numerous) laggards and cravens in their own party.

How did grass-roots reformers protesting government over-reach become re-characterized as Neanderthals? I thought Americans loved a good underdog story, and when we see national politics from both parties dominated by big-money interests, don't we want to see ordinary people break through and be heard? I mean, these people even clean up after themselves before they leave a rally; not only are they principled, they are polite and well-mannered and well-behaved! yet the NYTimes and their ilk instead chose to demonize them....

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

How did grass-roots reformers protesting government over-reach become re-characterized as Neanderthals?

I can't imagine.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Once upon a time, reasonable people could accept differences of opinion as legitimate; I'm not sure when any deviation from orthodoxy became such a heinous crime, but the demonization of any difference into pure unadulterated evil and imputation of base motives has really made conversation difficult and compromise almost impossible.

People still act the same way they always have. The only thing that's changed is ease at which we are able to record, report, broadcast and "witness" the boorish behavior, and quickly respond.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I can't imagine.

My favorite was always

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

How did grass-roots reformers protesting government over-reach become re-characterized as Neanderthals? I thought Americans loved a good underdog story, and when we see national politics from both parties dominated by big-money interests, don't we want to see ordinary people break through and be heard? I mean, these people even clean up after themselves before they leave a rally; not only are they principled, they are polite and well-mannered and well-behaved! yet the NYTimes and their ilk instead chose to demonize them....

As explained endlessly by the media most people rely on (NYT, CNN etc), the Tea Party is all stupid rednecks who didn't go to Harvard and can't be trusted. Some of them reportedly own Bibles. On the other hand, it's been explained endlessly that OWS protesters were pure of heart and noble in purpose, there wasn't a bad egg anywhere in that fine bunch of upstanding citizens. So what can you do? Carry on with your life.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Peggy Noonan aptly summarizes the state of the Presidential campaign.

Both campaigns are afraid of being serious, of really grappling with the things Americans rightly fear. But there's no safety in not being serious. It only leaves voters wondering if you're even capable of seriousness. Letting them wonder that is a mistake.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

As explained endlessly by the media most people rely on (NYT, CNN etc), the Tea Party is all stupid rednecks who didn't go to Harvard and can't be trusted. Some of them reportedly own Bibles. On the other hand, it's been explained endlessly that OWS protesters were pure of heart and noble in purpose, there wasn't a bad egg anywhere in that fine bunch of upstanding citizens. So what can you do? Carry on with your life.

The traditional solution in human groups is attrition warfare. That leaves you with a unified, albeit smaller, population.

The other solution is exile, but we don't have good enough spaceships yet for the losers to settle Mars.