Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Seems a shame that this can't be worked out. Hockey is always a unique situation. I believe some schools are allowed to compete at D 1 at the hockey level and D 3 in other sports. But that that exemption was grandfathered in. Seems a shame to maroon some teams in a D 2 that barely exists anymore. A compromise would seem to benefit all. D 2-D3 hockey only? The addition of St. Michael's and St. Anselm's would make a nice Lake Champlain circuit. By the way what is the differerence between D 2 and D3, scholarships?

The possibility of scholarships. St. Mike's has scholarships in BB only. That makes their whole program D2. I think that is also true at St. A's

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

It has been almost a week since the NESCAC meeting and you would expect the decision would of leaked by now. I have like everyone else been following the BP attempted clean up/cap well attempt in the gulf which makes the interlock decision small in comparision. Unfortunately that situation does not look good for an early resolution.

Hey just maybe the majority of NESCAC teams want to keep the national D3 champs on the schedule every year.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Saint Anselm provides athletic scholarships(without any means testing) to 20 students/athletes that play Varsity basketball.According to the Athletic department and to the College Webpage, no other athlete receives an athletic scholarship.
For the record, St.A's has an enrollment of less than 2,000 and has fielded a Varsity hockey program since 1970.
It is my understanding that St.A's and St.Mike's are the only two schools in the NE 10 that do not offer scholarships to ANY other varsity athlete(baseball,football, lacrosse etc.) that is not related to basketball.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Seems a shame that this can't be worked out. Hockey is always a unique situation. I believe some schools are allowed to compete at D 1 at the hockey level and D 3 in other sports. But that that exemption was grandfathered in. Seems a shame to maroon some teams in a D 2 that barely exists anymore.

This is because DI (when there is no moratorium) allows all D2 and D3 schools one sport per gender to play up. It just happens that hockey is the most popular sport for this, ESPECIALLY for the DIIs. The schools that are normally DII and the DIII schools that played up and offered scholarships prior to 2003 are still allowd to do so (those DIII schools are the "grandfathered" exception, there is no rule in DII for it to be an exception). It's not really a case of NCAA "Marooning" the six (formerly 7, with Minn-Crookston) DIIs, but rather a case of those schools opting not to play up to the DI level, thus marooning themselves. Granted, in these moratorium days there is nothing they can do about moving to DI or DIII, but that's only a temporary situation.

A compromise would seem to benefit all. D 2-D3 hockey only? The addition of St. Michael's and St. Anselm's would make a nice Lake Champlain circuit.

I absolutely agree, and this is by far not the first time a D2/3 National Collegiate Hockey be created on the men's side, à la the D1/2 NC in existence on the women's, has been suggested. It would be less of a solution, and more of a correction of a mistake. Remember, when the DIII schools were forced to play DIII (having previously played DII hockey in the absence of a DIII for that sport, thus allowing RIT, Elmira, and Plattsburgh the DII accolades mentioned in my signature), the DIIs were initially allowed to play down with them in order to preserve rivalries. That's how Bemidji State became 1986 Champions and 1985 runner-up. Then NCAA enacted a policy of playing in your division at all times (allowing for the DI play-up), and it has been so ever since.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way what is the difference between D 2 and D3, scholarships?

Bingo.
EDIT: as those above me have said, it is a case of being able to offer athletic scholarships.

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Cards

But would the NCAA allow D-II to split with some playing in a D-I championship and some playing in a D2/D3 national championship??

While I don't disagree with the arguement, I wonder if the NCAA or the D2 presidents would do such a thing. In effect, if they do what you propose, you end up with D2AA and D2A for only one sport.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Cards

But would the NCAA allow D-II to split with some playing in a D-I championship and some playing in a D2/D3 national championship??

While I don't disagree with the arguement, I wonder if the NCAA or the D2 presidents would do such a thing. In effect, if they do what you propose, you end up with D2AA and D2A for only one sport.

Very likely the reason why it's not going to happen

 

[3rdLiner]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I think the D-II hockey school are now so few that they do not have any power with the NCAA. It has to be a D-III driven process or I think the D-II will die as I do not see any D-I schools interested in playing the D-II schools..... maybe AIC?

I think the NESCAC should take some responsibility in all of this as well, them choosing to leave and not play the D-II schools anymore forces all the East schools into this situation.

The interlock was very good on many levels including helping some of the D-II schools, however if they choose to leave that is their choice but I hope they make a very clear statement as to why they did and explain how other implications like the D-II schools were considered etc.....

 

[LtPowers]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

It has to be a D-III driven process or I think the D-II will die as I do not see any D-I schools interested in playing the D-II schools..... maybe AIC?

AIC is a D-II school. Or do you mean that it's the only D-II school D-I schools are interested in playing (which is patently not true)?


Powers &8^]

 

[Henry]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

It seems like that would make them D 1 or nothing. That seems like a harsh solution. They are not large schools and from what you guys have said the other sports are D 2 basketball etc. But the hockey teams seem to abide by the same guidelines as the D 3 guys. Since this seems to be a distinction without a difference it would be a shame to lose these programs. No matter what you call them I think they would be a big boost to the local D 3 teams. Also travel between these very strong programs would be very reasonable. Sometimes a sensible compromise is reached in the end.

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

D-II schools playing ice hockey
School, Division where they play, hockey conference, (real conference)

Alabama - Huntsville - D-I Independent (Gulf South)
Alaska - Anchorage - D-I WCHA (GNAC)
Alaska - Fairbanks - D-I CCHA (GNAC)
American International - D-I AHA (NE10)
Assumption College - D-II NE10 (NE10)
Bemidji State - D-I WCHA (Northern Sun)
Bentley College - D-I AHA (NE10)
Ferris State - D-I CCHA (GLIAC)
Franklin Pierce - D-II NE10 (NE10)
Lake Superior State - D-I CCHA (GLIAC)
UMass - Lowell - D-I HEA (NE10)
Mercyhurst - D-I AHA (Penn St Ath Conf)
Merrimack - D-I HEA (NE10)
Michgan Tech - D-I WCHA (GLIAC)
Minnesota Mankato - D-I WCHA (Northern Sun)
Minnesota Duluth - D-I WCHA (Northern Sun)
Nebraska Omaha - D-I WCHA (Mid Am Intercoll Ath Conf)
Northern Michigan - D-I CCHA (GLIAC)
Southern NH - D-II NE10 (NE10)
St. Anselm - D-III ECAC-E (NE10)
St. Cloud State - D-I WCHA (Northern Sun)
St. Michael's - D-III ECAC-E (NE10)
Stonehill - D-II NE10 (NE10)

By Hockey Conference
ECAC-E -2
NE10 - 4
AHA - 3
HEA - 2
CCHA - 4
WCHA - 7
Indep - 1

By Real Conference
NE10 - 10
GLIAC - 4
Northern Sun - 4

Source: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/about+the+ncaa/membership
Click on "Lists of NCAA Schools and Conferences by Division (can also be sorted by state)" and select D-II.
Any errors are that of the NCAA

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

American International - D-I AHA (NE10)
Assumption College - D-II NE10 (NE10)
Bentley College - D-I AHA (NE10)
Franklin Pierce - D-II NE10 (NE10)
UMass - Lowell - D-I HEA (NE10)
Merrimack - D-I HEA (NE10)
Southern NH - D-II NE10 (NE10)
St. Anselm - D-III ECAC-E (NE10)
St. Michael's - D-III ECAC-E (NE10)
Stonehill - D-II NE10 (NE10)

My question is: If, by some miracle, a DII/DIII National Collegiate Division for Hockey, and therefore the DII schools were tournament eligible... would AIC, Bentley, UMass-Lowell, and Merrimack be forced to play in that division as members of the NE-10? I know some conferences dictate that if you play the sport, and the conference of which you are a member officially sponsors the sport, you have to participate in that conference for that sport. Does the NE-10 have such a policy, and would it be applied to those 4 schools?

Oh, and for those who don't know: there are actually 16 schools in the NE-10 conference, So the fact that 10 sponsor hockey does not mean that the entire conference does. 6 of them do not sponsor hockey (Adelphi, Le Moyne, Pace, New Haven, St. Rose, and So. Connecticut State). The people in charge just don't know how to count!

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

the Northeast 10/16 is by design a basketball league.they would like to have the teams in the league ,in other sports, play their games in the NE10 conference.The one true exception is mens and womens ice hockey,as they could care less about the sport as a conference.it is a little like the ACC and Boston College in hockey
The NE10 , started a tournament when the NCAA discontinued the NCAA Div.2 national tournament.My sense is, that they would drop their tourmanent,if teams were allowed to play in the DIII and play in the Nationals,

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

the Northeast 10/16 is by design a basketball league.they would like to have the teams in the league ,in other sports, play their games in the NE10 conference.The one true exception is mens and womens ice hockey,as they could care less about the sport as a conference.it is a little like the ACC and Boston College in hockey
The NE10 , started a tournament when the NCAA discontinued the NCAA Div.2 national tournament.My sense is, that they would drop their tourmanent,if teams were allowed to play in the DIII and play in the Nationals,

No they wouldn't -- they need the AQ from the conference tournament in the big skate.

If there is a D1/2 National Championship then maybe the NE10 will force all its members to play NE10 (see MASCAC vs. Salem St, 2008). But if it is a D2/3 NC, then I don't think the NE10 will ask its members to give up their D1 affiliation.

But, how do you split an NCAA division where some are playing up and some are playing down? If the reasoning is that the D1 playing schools are good and the D3 playing schools are not, then why doesn't the NCAA let the bottom D1 basketball schools play D2??

There is no easy answer. Whatever the solution will be (if any), I would think the NCAA will choose the simplest and easiest.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

But, how do you split an NCAA division where some are playing up and some are playing down? If the reasoning is that the D1 playing schools are good and the D3 playing schools are not, then why doesn't the NCAA let the bottom D1 basketball schools play D2??

There is no easy answer. Whatever the solution will be (if any), I would think the NCAA will choose the simplest and easiest.

Reinstitute the DII/DIII National Championship as it was before, and set the scholarship limit for D2 hockey at 0. Then you have some schools playing up and some not.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

No they wouldn't -- they need the AQ from the conference tournament in the big skate.

If there is a D1/2 National Championship then maybe the NE10 will force all its members to play NE10 (see MASCAC vs. Salem St, 2008). But if it is a D2/3 NC, then I don't think the NE10 will ask its members to give up their D1 affiliation.

But, how do you split an NCAA division where some are playing up and some are playing down? If the reasoning is that the D1 playing schools are good and the D3 playing schools are not, then why doesn't the NCAA let the bottom D1 basketball schools play D2??

There is no easy answer. Whatever the solution will be (if any), I would think the NCAA will choose the simplest and easiest.

What are you talking about relative to an AQ and "the big skate"? At least 4 members of the NE10 would have no interest or ability(financial) to play a DI schedule.Please keep in mind ,most NE10 schools do not fit the DII profile of a significant majority of DII schools.if it wasn't for BBall we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

No they wouldn't -- they need the AQ from the conference tournament in the big skate.

Actually the do not need a conference tournament. The conference can decide how to determine who gets the available AQ. Most use a tournament, but the regular season champ could have it if that was what the conference criteria was.

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

What are you talking about relative to an AQ and "the big skate"? At least 4 members of the NE10 would have no interest or ability(financial) to play a DI schedule.Please keep in mind ,most NE10 schools do not fit the DII profile of a significant majority of DII schools.if it wasn't for BBall we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Hawk

The beauty of a D1/2 National Championship is that the NE10 don't have to play a majority of thier games against HEA or the EZACHL. IF, mind you a big if, there is a 10 team NE10 conference then that is a minimum of 18 and a maximum of 27 games against their conference. If it plays the latter then then play 7 games against AHA teams.

At the end of the day, the NE10 champion gets seed #16 to the D1/2 championship and they go out quickly.

But, a rising tide raises all boats, so maybe some of the "weaker" NE10 teams would spend some $$ to become more competitive within the conference.

 

[LtPowers]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

If it plays the latter then then play 7 games against AHA teams.

Except the AHA teams aren't going to devote all seven of their non-conference games to NE10 competition. Two to four is more realistic.


Powers &8^]

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Except the AHA teams aren't going to devote all seven of their non-conference games to NE10 competition. Two to four is more realistic.


Powers &8^]

Remember the PWR and how it is computed. There are advantages to playing strong NE10 schools that would bring a good RPI and OWP to the mix. If the NE10 and AHA (the originals AHA'ers were pretty much in the same league as the existing NE10's in the old ECAC) strike up a scheduling alliance it could boost the AHA's chances of getting a 2nd bid into the NCAA.

In D1 land it's all abouot the numbers and not perceptions. It is possible with the right schedule for an AHA team to be one of the top 4 national seeds - if they schedule things right and have a great W-L record.

However this is all wild speculation that depends on the Powers that Be to do the sane and rational thing.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

UMASS Lowell will not leave HE
Merrimack does not want to leave HE
Bentley is seriously looking at DI for all sports
Stonehill is looking at DI(and probably dropping hockey and adding lacrosse
franklin pierce cannot afford DI
AIC ,who knows?
assumption could care less about Hockey
SNHU see AIC
St.Michael's wants to stay in ECACE and actively exploring DIII in all sports
St.A's won't spend the money for D1