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Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
- Thread starter joecct
- Start date
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
DIII institutions are ACADEMIC institutions with athletics to allow for a break from the academic demands. Giving ANY preference for athletic ability opens the door for more academically qualified individual to be denied admission – IMO, not on the spirit of a DIII academic mission. I have NO problem with an athletic department recruiting and encouraging athletically talented students from applying, but the admissions’ process should be blind of any other input beyond academic potential.
DI institutions long ago crossed the line in terms of the role of athletics, in the DI world there are FEW “Student Athletes”, they are mostly menially paid professionals in training, providing HUGE economic (direct and indirect) benefits to their "employers".
Norm, you smokin' some of Peach's stuff??
DIII institutions are ACADEMIC institutions with athletics to allow for a break from the academic demands. Giving ANY preference for athletic ability opens the door for more academically qualified individual to be denied admission – IMO, not on the spirit of a DIII academic mission. I have NO problem with an athletic department recruiting and encouraging athletically talented students from applying, but the admissions’ process should be blind of any other input beyond academic potential.
DI institutions long ago crossed the line in terms of the role of athletics, in the DI world there are FEW “Student Athletes”, they are mostly menially paid professionals in training, providing HUGE economic (direct and indirect) benefits to their "employers".
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Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
I absolutely, completely and 100% agree with you Norm...my comments were directed more toward the illusion that such a philosophy is widespread in D-III!
This concern (that it was not) was highlighted by a number of D-III administrators (both within and outside of NESCAC) in calling for changes, in some cases Div IV (a very bad idea) and in other cases more stringent oversight by the institutions and NCAA (perhaps a good idea with caveats).
As usual this will probably result in the typical USCHO ****storm, but hey...it is what it is. There are many D-III school with "student-athletes" and many D-III schools with.......
I absolutely, completely and 100% agree with you Norm...my comments were directed more toward the illusion that such a philosophy is widespread in D-III!
This concern (that it was not) was highlighted by a number of D-III administrators (both within and outside of NESCAC) in calling for changes, in some cases Div IV (a very bad idea) and in other cases more stringent oversight by the institutions and NCAA (perhaps a good idea with caveats).
As usual this will probably result in the typical USCHO ****storm, but hey...it is what it is. There are many D-III school with "student-athletes" and many D-III schools with.......
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
I was just happy that Emery's comments in Russell's article about the Buff State/Geneseo infractions were apparently vague enough to keep that can of worms closed. It's a valid enough topic in theory, but it's one that can never possibly be supported either way by anything beyond anecdotes without a genuine, in-depth investigation gifted an awful lot of access - something I don't see happening any time soon (I believe Russell more eloquently stated largely the same sentiment). And when an argument becomes simultaneously he said/she said AND public/private, nothing good comes of it.
I was just happy that Emery's comments in Russell's article about the Buff State/Geneseo infractions were apparently vague enough to keep that can of worms closed. It's a valid enough topic in theory, but it's one that can never possibly be supported either way by anything beyond anecdotes without a genuine, in-depth investigation gifted an awful lot of access - something I don't see happening any time soon (I believe Russell more eloquently stated largely the same sentiment). And when an argument becomes simultaneously he said/she said AND public/private, nothing good comes of it.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Well said, Dyce...and I think you are correct that it will just stay as is...and remain the "elephant in the room". I don't think the NCAA has the desire, inclination or interest for expending any resources and would prefer that D-III continue to be fundamentally a self-policing entity, not that such is necessarily a bad thing.
Well said, Dyce...and I think you are correct that it will just stay as is...and remain the "elephant in the room". I don't think the NCAA has the desire, inclination or interest for expending any resources and would prefer that D-III continue to be fundamentally a self-policing entity, not that such is necessarily a bad thing.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
I read where hawkhockey reported an ECACE coach claimed the interlock will end after this year. I have thought all along that out of respect and friendship some NESCAC coaches would let the word out to some of the ECACE coaches. I read that D2 can not drop down to D3 but it is hard for me to believe that the NCAA would not let a long running program like St. A's with a great hockey facility go D3 if they did so in all sports.
Although it appears the ECACE coaches will meet later in the summer I would think the restructure of the league is already being discussed now and possible replacements discussed. I think the breakup if it occurs will hurt mostly St. Mike's and St. A's who have both played NCAA hockey for a number of years. The way Curry and Wentworth have been recruiting you have to believe that they would be prime canditates to add to the EAST.
I am not going to knock the NESCAC because there are some good reasons to limit play to conference NESCAC schools. However if I was Middlebury and Bowdoin I sure would't want to see some of the NESCAC teams 2 times a year in place of Norwich, Southern Maine, NEC, St. A's, Castleton, Babson, Skidmore, and UMASS Boston all of whom play an exciting brand of hockey.
I read where hawkhockey reported an ECACE coach claimed the interlock will end after this year. I have thought all along that out of respect and friendship some NESCAC coaches would let the word out to some of the ECACE coaches. I read that D2 can not drop down to D3 but it is hard for me to believe that the NCAA would not let a long running program like St. A's with a great hockey facility go D3 if they did so in all sports.
Although it appears the ECACE coaches will meet later in the summer I would think the restructure of the league is already being discussed now and possible replacements discussed. I think the breakup if it occurs will hurt mostly St. Mike's and St. A's who have both played NCAA hockey for a number of years. The way Curry and Wentworth have been recruiting you have to believe that they would be prime canditates to add to the EAST.
I am not going to knock the NESCAC because there are some good reasons to limit play to conference NESCAC schools. However if I was Middlebury and Bowdoin I sure would't want to see some of the NESCAC teams 2 times a year in place of Norwich, Southern Maine, NEC, St. A's, Castleton, Babson, Skidmore, and UMASS Boston all of whom play an exciting brand of hockey.
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
It's not the NCAA stopping them. It's the DIII Membership that decided to cap their own membership until they find a better way to deal with the overpopulation of the division.
It's not the NCAA stopping them. It's the DIII Membership that decided to cap their own membership until they find a better way to deal with the overpopulation of the division.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Didn't Lebanon Valley drop D3 hockey this year; why couldn't St. A's take there place? I can not see the Western D3 schools preventing a team that has played D3/D2 hockey for 50+- from playing D3 hockey if that is the only thing available with a viable schedule.
Didn't Lebanon Valley drop D3 hockey this year; why couldn't St. A's take there place? I can not see the Western D3 schools preventing a team that has played D3/D2 hockey for 50+- from playing D3 hockey if that is the only thing available with a viable schedule.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
The cap on DIII is for all sports - what is going on in hockey is affected by that decision, but individual circumstances in hockey have no bearing whatsoever on what happens.
The whole cause of the problem is that the NCAA has a one model fits all sports mentality, and won't change anything for the benefit of hockey.
The cap on DIII is for all sports - what is going on in hockey is affected by that decision, but individual circumstances in hockey have no bearing whatsoever on what happens.
The whole cause of the problem is that the NCAA has a one model fits all sports mentality, and won't change anything for the benefit of hockey.
Matthew Webb
Whiner.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Well, not to say they were prevented from playing by anyone, but Crookston folded up its DII program not so long ago...
Well, not to say they were prevented from playing by anyone, but Crookston folded up its DII program not so long ago...
hawkhockey
Registered User
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Of the 88 respondents from the EAST region,76% indicated high levels of agreement to the Statement.
of the 51 respondentsfrom the West Region,17% indicated high levels of agreement.
76% East vs. 17% West !
At the last NCAA DIII ice hockey meeting this spring, when asked the question " are in agreement with the statement that DII hockey games shoulfd be considered in region games for DIII hockey"
Of the 88 respondents from the EAST region,76% indicated high levels of agreement to the Statement.
of the 51 respondentsfrom the West Region,17% indicated high levels of agreement.
76% East vs. 17% West !
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
As NUProf said, it's a cap on DIII membership as a whole. And LVC, despite no longer sponsoring NCAA Hockey, is still an NCAA DIII institution, and still count against the cap. Get a DIII school to go DII or DI, or leave NCAA, and it might work... but there may already be a waiting list for such an occurrence, and I'm sure SUNY Canton is already on it if there is.
As NUProf said, it's a cap on DIII membership as a whole. And LVC, despite no longer sponsoring NCAA Hockey, is still an NCAA DIII institution, and still count against the cap. Get a DIII school to go DII or DI, or leave NCAA, and it might work... but there may already be a waiting list for such an occurrence, and I'm sure SUNY Canton is already on it if there is.
CROSBYNU63
GO CADETS
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
It would appear that USM is seriously thinking of joining the Mass League. Time for the ECAC East to make some moves. My guess would be something has to give with St Mikes and St A's. If they stay D2 I believe they are out. Coming in could be Curry, maybe Wentworth, maybe Nichols, and just maybe Manhattanville. It's going to get real interesting real soon.
It would appear that USM is seriously thinking of joining the Mass League. Time for the ECAC East to make some moves. My guess would be something has to give with St Mikes and St A's. If they stay D2 I believe they are out. Coming in could be Curry, maybe Wentworth, maybe Nichols, and just maybe Manhattanville. It's going to get real interesting real soon.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
For example, does UNE stay, or move to the NE? Wasn't one of the reasons that UNE was selected for the opening left by Salem was their proximity to USM as a travel partner? (Wasn't it nice that the NESCAC forced that decision on the basis that they would pull out of the interlock if another choice was made?
)
For example, does UNE stay, or move to the NE? Wasn't one of the reasons that UNE was selected for the opening left by Salem was their proximity to USM as a travel partner? (Wasn't it nice that the NESCAC forced that decision on the basis that they would pull out of the interlock if another choice was made?
)The Real Georgia Peach
Registered User
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Based on the addition of 5 schools to active NCAA DIII status and an additional 9 schools working their way through the four year process, and additional applications being fielded at this coming July's meeting, it looks like the "moratorium" on DIII schools is over. That being said, what prevents these, or any DIII school from starting a hockey program. Lyndon State (VT), would be a prime example of an available addition to ECAC DIII.
Based on the addition of 5 schools to active NCAA DIII status and an additional 9 schools working their way through the four year process, and additional applications being fielded at this coming July's meeting, it looks like the "moratorium" on DIII schools is over. That being said, what prevents these, or any DIII school from starting a hockey program. Lyndon State (VT), would be a prime example of an available addition to ECAC DIII.
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Real interesting comments about a restructure of the East. If you look at the way Curry and Wentworth have been recruiting it almost looks like they have been anticipating this move. Both teams have developed into very competitive D3 teams and would be a fine addition to the East and compare very favorable to the middle of the pack NESCAC teams. I like Manhattanville joing the East too. It may not be possible but I would like the East to consider some type of interlock schedule with the ECAC West in part to keep the West viable. Maybe travel could be restricted to one trip out West each year to keep cost down (Neumann and Elmire one year and Hobart and Utica the next). Of course, travel for the West would be much greater because they have fewer teams. I not sure about Nichols based on ice time availability.
I am suprised by the USM talk because with UNE in the East I thought they saw value in that arrangement. Also I thought USM was interested in a more compeitive league like the ECAC East rather than joining a league that played games during the week with no overnight trips.
Real interesting comments about a restructure of the East. If you look at the way Curry and Wentworth have been recruiting it almost looks like they have been anticipating this move. Both teams have developed into very competitive D3 teams and would be a fine addition to the East and compare very favorable to the middle of the pack NESCAC teams. I like Manhattanville joing the East too. It may not be possible but I would like the East to consider some type of interlock schedule with the ECAC West in part to keep the West viable. Maybe travel could be restricted to one trip out West each year to keep cost down (Neumann and Elmire one year and Hobart and Utica the next). Of course, travel for the West would be much greater because they have fewer teams. I not sure about Nichols based on ice time availability.
I am suprised by the USM talk because with UNE in the East I thought they saw value in that arrangement. Also I thought USM was interested in a more compeitive league like the ECAC East rather than joining a league that played games during the week with no overnight trips.
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hockeyfan77
Registered User
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Me too...First I heard about it...I got to check into this...I will see what's up...
Me too...First I heard about it...I got to check into this...I will see what's up...
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
What about UMB - the other Little East School? If they both go, there goes the ECAC-E AQ (as currently constructed).
Well.....
What about UMB - the other Little East School? If they both go, there goes the ECAC-E AQ (as currently constructed).
hawkhockey
Registered User
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
I know this has been addressed but I am still somewhat confused.
Could a NCAA DII school,assuming they could find a league, move one sport ie.hockey, up to a NCAA DI hockey league for the 2011-2012 season?
Is there any current and or pending NCAA legislation that deals with this situation?Thanks
I know this has been addressed but I am still somewhat confused.
Could a NCAA DII school,assuming they could find a league, move one sport ie.hockey, up to a NCAA DI hockey league for the 2011-2012 season?
Is there any current and or pending NCAA legislation that deals with this situation?Thanks
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???
Under current legislation, Yes.
There is pending legislation that would change the answer to "no".
Under current legislation, Yes.
There is pending legislation that would change the answer to "no".