Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I'm a bit confused here. What exactly does the situation entail? Or what is the specific issue here, perhaps?

Edit: He referring to the (potential) conference realignment and saying it's only fair that recruits know what is going on?

I'd imagine the "situation" is twofold.

First part is the DIIs. With no interlock, keeping them in the conference likely means 4 games per season that don't count... and none of the DIIIs in the league want that.

Second part is the AQ. With USM leaving, that leaves them with 7 DIII teams. If UMB follows, or Skidmore jumps ship, the ECAC-E will need to begin trying to recruit at least 1 more team (from the ECAC-NE).

Both of these are issues that any conference should be discussing very early in the process, making sure everything is put on the table right from the beginning. The meeting tomorrow is a sign of very effective conference management.

 

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Can anyone shed any light on the relationship between the ECAC-E, W, NE, in regards to their parent organization, the ECAC? And why wouldn't the parent organization have a substantial role in determining how the various leagues within the ECAC are structured?

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Both of these are issues that any conference should be discussing very early in the process, making sure everything is put on the table right from the beginning. The meeting tomorrow is a sign of very effective conference management.

They are clearly trying to make a proactive response to a situation that could get very ugly for the remaining teams. Although the waste won't hit the rotating air mover until the end of the season, it is best to have a plan in place. I would assume that NU, Castleton, NEC, UNE and Babson are first going to want a commitment one way or the other from USM, UMB, and Skidmore as to their status. If they know that at least two of them are still in, they can concentrate on the DII issue. If two or more of them are out, they need to start survival planning and recruiting potential replacements.

If the DII issue is the only issue, a potential divorce settlement might be something like the one developed by the ECAC NE and the 4 DIIs that used to play there. If there were 7 teams left, they might play each other 3 times and the DII's once each. That would make a 20 game schedule. Norwich would be left with the TA, Primelink, and a game against Middlebury or Plattsburgh. That would guarantee the DII teams 7 games, and they could play each other 3 times for a guaranteed schedule of 17 games. Or something ...

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Can anyone shed any light on the relationship between the ECAC-E, W, NE, in regards to their parent organization, the ECAC? And why wouldn't the parent organization have a substantial role in determining how the various leagues within the ECAC are structured?

The three leagues act quite independently of the ECAC and are responsible for determining their own membership. The ECAC has no say in who plays in which league and basically provides an administrative structure and officiating assignment services for their members.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

They are clearly trying to make a proactive response to a situation that could get very ugly for the remaining teams. Although the waste won't hit the rotating air mover until the end of the season, it is best to have a plan in place. I would assume that NU, Castleton, NEC, UNE and Babson are first going to want a commitment one way or the other from USM, UMB, and Skidmore as to their status. If they know that at least two of them are still in, they can concentrate on the DII issue. If two or more of them are out, they need to start survival planning and recruiting potential replacements.

If the DII issue is the only issue, a potential divorce settlement might be something like the one developed by the ECAC NE and the 4 DIIs that used to play there. If there were 7 teams left, they might play each other 3 times and the DII's once each. That would make a 20 game schedule. Norwich would be left with the TA, Primelink, and a game against Middlebury or Plattsburgh. That would guarantee the DII teams 7 games, and they could play each other 3 times for a guaranteed schedule of 17 games. Or something ...

Probably Middlebury. The Primelink is in Middlebury that year, so the Cadets would be guaranteed a match against the Cardinals. I would imagine McShane would want to be 100% sure that both would be on his schedule. And I'm sure the Norwich fan base would much better appreciate the potential for 2 games against Middlebury than a guarantee of 2 against Plattsburgh and the possibility of no game against Middlebury.

 

[nefan]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

They are clearly trying to make a proactive response to a situation that could get very ugly for the remaining teams. Although the waste won't hit the rotating air mover until the end of the season, it is best to have a plan in place. I would assume that NU, Castleton, NEC, UNE and Babson are first going to want a commitment one way or the other from USM, UMB, and Skidmore as to their status. If they know that at least two of them are still in, they can concentrate on the DII issue. If two or more of them are out, they need to start survival planning and recruiting potential replacements.

If the DII issue is the only issue, a potential divorce settlement might be something like the one developed by the ECAC NE and the 4 DIIs that used to play there. If there were 7 teams left, they might play each other 3 times and the DII's once each. That would make a 20 game schedule. Norwich would be left with the TA, Primelink, and a game against Middlebury or Plattsburgh. That would guarantee the DII teams 7 games, and they could play each other 3 times for a guaranteed schedule of 17 games. Or something ...

How about a NEW Interlock!! ECAC East with their 8 teams and the ECAC Northeast with their 8 teams. You would count all the games, that would be 15 Conference Games, Have their own Conference Championship with the AQ at the end!! They would have 10 NC games one less than the Northeast has now??

 

[nefan]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

How about a NEW Interlock!! ECAC East with their 8 teams and the ECAC Northeast with their 8 teams. You would count all the games, that would be 15 Conference Games, Have their own Conference Championship with the AQ at the end!! They would have 10 NC games one less than the Northeast has now??

You could even add in the WEST for a total of 20 Conference Games for the NE and East. The WEST could play eachother twice (8) and the EAST & Northeast once for a total of 24 Games?? Although I don't see tyhat happening. Just a thought

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

You could even add in the WEST for a total of 20 Conference Games for the NE and East. The WEST could play eachother twice (8) and the EAST & Northeast once for a total of 24 Games?? Although I don't see tyhat happening. Just a thought

I have a feeling that what ever the solution is, some people will be happy, and others will be disgruntled. (Kind of like what's happening with the Pac-10/12, Big 12/10, Big T(welv)en, Mountain West, etc.)

I guarantee there will be winners and losers out of all of this, and the losers will not be happy.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

...I guarantee there will be winners and losers out of all of this, and the losers will not be happy.

Can there be winners without losers Are the losers ever happy about their losses

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Can there be winners without losers Are the losers ever happy about their losses

Is life a zero-sum game? If not, there can be winners without being losers.

Seriously, I was thinking in terms of the quantity of the losses suffered by the losers, which led me to express it in terms of many losers who are REALLY UNHAPPY about it.

Smart aleck. I might have to change my vote

 

[Matthew Webb]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I'd imagine the "situation" is twofold.

First part is the DIIs. With no interlock, keeping them in the conference likely means 4 games per season that don't count... and none of the DIIIs in the league want that.

Second part is the AQ. With USM leaving, that leaves them with 7 DIII teams. If UMB follows, or Skidmore jumps ship, the ECAC-E will need to begin trying to recruit at least 1 more team (from the ECAC-NE).

Both of these are issues that any conference should be discussing very early in the process, making sure everything is put on the table right from the beginning. The meeting tomorrow is a sign of very effective conference management.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. That stuff I get...but was wondering what reggiedunlop was getting at. Probably should have quoted him instead of Crosby, but if his point was that some conclusion here is necessary as it's only fair to any potential recruits...I'd have to agree.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Is life a zero-sum game? If not, there can be winners without being losers.

Seriously, I was thinking in terms of the quantity of the losses suffered by the losers, which led me to express it in terms of many losers who are REALLY UNHAPPY about it.

Smart aleck. I might have to change my vote

Which, must be equal to the quantity of the wins enjoyed by the winners, I would think

But alas, I do believe the number of losers (fans of displaced teams) will exceed the winners (the handful of fans who believe the ends justify the means).

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Which, must be equal to the quantity of the wins enjoyed by the winners, I would think

True, if it is a zero sum game - I don't think it has to be. If we put the right mixes of teams together we could have all winners. We could also have all losers

But alas, I do believe the number of losers (fans of displaced teams) will exceed the winners (the handful of fans who believe the ends justify the means).

Unfortunately, you may be right.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

True, if it is a zero sum game - I don't think it has to be. If we put the right mixes of teams together we could have all winners. We could also have all losers



Unfortunately, you may be right.

In all seriousness, you are spot on that it need NOT be a zero sum game.

Certainly there are philosophical issues that might steer institutional administrations toward policies some would consider snobbish, elitist and self-depreciating. But when it comes to athletics, these self-righteous need to abandon their self-righteousness and join the consensus view. Recently, the world had the opportunity to see North Korea compete in the World Cup, certainly North Korea is in a “league of their own”, but nevertheless, on the world sports stage, they were treated as equals.

The establishment of leagues/conferences to take advantage of commonalities, cost savings/synergies, etc makes total sense, IF, it can be done without substantial negative impact on the sport as a whole. True sportsmanship REQUIRES supporting the best interest of the sport, with personal prejudices taking a back burner. Sadly, this may not be the case, as some with a Spenserian/Darwinian spirit, cast aside their less endowed brethren in the pursuit of their idiosyncrasies

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

To provide us with an idea what a restructuree ECAC E will look like I took a look at the Women's ECAC E teams to provide some insight to what teams may join the East:
Castleton
Holy Cross
Manhattanville
Mass-Boston
NEC
Niclols
Norwich
Plymouth State
Salve Regina
Southern Maine
St. Anselm

After looking at the list why would Umass Boston and USM join the MASCAC when there Women's teams are playing in the East. You could also make a case that Manhattanvile could join the East if having both your men's and women's hockey programs in the same league is important. I took a look at a lot of the women's programs in all the D3 leagues and found the men's and women's teams are or will be in the same league if the interlock breaks up. I know it is not fair but if I ran the ECAC E I would consider leaving St. A's in because of the quality of the team and arena. Also if I had a wish list I would add Curry, Wentworth, and Manhattanville to the East if they want to come regardless of who stays.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Of course the fact is that there is not an ECAC NE or MASCAC in women's hockey. That means that the destination for the schools with men's teams in those two leagues has to to be the ECAC E. The one program that is really split is Manhattanville, which probably is closer in geographic terms to belonging with the East (its women's affiliation) the the West (its men's affilliation).

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Of course the fact is that there is not an ECAC NE or MASCAC in women's hockey. That means that the destination for the schools with men's teams in those two leagues has to to be the ECAC E. The one program that is really split is Manhattanville, which probably is closer in geographic terms to belonging with the East (its women's affiliation) the the West (its men's affilliation).

I suspect the lack of a SUNYAC in women's hockey greatly impacts the ECAC-West, helping to encourage (for scheduling) Manhattanville Women to play in the ECAC-East.

 

[Dyce]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Of course the fact is that there is not an ECAC NE or MASCAC in women's hockey. That means that the destination for the schools with men's teams in those two leagues has to to be the ECAC E.

Exactly: the reason to join a conference like the MASCAC speaks to the heart of many issues raised by this thread. The MASCAC is a multi-sport conference with FAR more influence over its member institutions than the passive facilitation of the ECAC conferences. This allows for a stability that, as we've seen throughout the thread, is at a premium in a sport full of conferences largely dictated by the whims of the "haves" regarding the "have-nots." If you're a school in the NESCAC, SUNYAC, MASCAC, or MIAC, there's very little incentive to cast yourself into the turbulance outside of the shelter provided by those conferences, and if you are eligible to join such a conference, there's a whole lot of incentive to do so.

 

[PSUC92]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I think that one reason that Skidmore might think about leaving is that they fancy themselves as a NESCAC-type school, and the interlock let them play in that sandbox.

Just jumping in... There's no doubt the NESCACS vetoed M-ville because of their lack of any type of admission standards. As for the sandbox, that 's a great place to play (at least it was for Norwich until they got kicked out). What will Skidmore do and how would they compete with the no standard schools?

 

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

What have you been drinking/smoking? Norwich has never been in NESCAC, and they never have had a desire to be.