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Dump Term 2, 1.01: Sleep Now in the Fire

psych said:
Capitalism is working fine in Western Europe, no? The Dutch, the Danes, the Germans, etc. I am not a worldly-traveler, nor have I lived anywhere but here, but they seem to have figured out the somewhat delicate balance of capitalism/a functioning government that provides for most of its citizens.
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Depends on what you mean by fine. I would say yes, their quality of life is generally higher as is life expectancy. But they could be in worse shape than us quite quickly
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
Depends on what you mean by fine. I would say yes, their quality of life is generally higher as is life expectancy. But they could be in worse shape than us quite quickly
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Fair enough. And maybe their way of life works because up until now, they had the United States to supply the money and troops for their defense in the form of NATO, save maybe France, so that they could afford everything else. I won’t claim to know the intricacies. I’m just not sure throwing away capitalism altogether is the best idea. But, I come here for the healthy discussion to see the different perspectives.
 
psych said:
Fair enough. And maybe their way of life works because up until now, they had the United States to supply the money and troops for their defense in the form of NATO, save maybe France, so that they could afford everything else. I won’t claim to know the intricacies. I’m just not sure throwing away capitalism altogether is the best idea. But, I come here for the healthy discussion to see the different perspectives.
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I think the scandi/nordic systems work best- it’s capitalism with heavy dose of socialism flavor for life’s basic needs, which, turns out, just makes people happier
 
That's only cause those guard rails aren't strong enough, because they've been chipped away at by decades of wealthy people's influence.

That's why we need the 75% tax rate, and the end of the estate tax $10 million exemption, so familial wealth doesn't accumulate, and the influence of wealth on this country's government policy is diminished, if not eradicated entirely.
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
I think the scandi/nordic systems work best- it’s capitalism with heavy dose of socialism flavor for life’s basic needs, which, turns out, just makes people happier
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Works for me! I’m not against socialism at all…I just don’t know that full-on socialism leads to the best quality of life outcomes either.
 
psych said:
Fair enough. And maybe their way of life works because up until now, they had the United States to supply the money and troops for their defense in the form of NATO, save maybe France, so that they could afford everything else. I won’t claim to know the intricacies. I’m just not sure throwing away capitalism altogether is the best idea. But, I come here for the healthy discussion to see the different perspectives.
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The major European countries look better because their social systems paper over a lot of cracks. Look underneath the surface and you’ll see the same wealth inequality, but with the added benefit of easier tax avoidance, and the same creeping specter of racism and fascism. Same thing with Canada, Japan, and South Korea too.
 
Jimjamesak said:
The major European countries look better because their social systems paper over a lot of cracks. Look underneath the surface and you’ll see the same wealth inequality, but with the added benefit of easier tax avoidance, and the same creeping specter of racism and fascism. Same thing with Canada, Japan, and South Korea too.
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I’ll take your word for it. I am a privileged white male with all of the perks that come with it, so this may sound incredibly tone deaf, but I’d venture to guess people are better able to put up with/avoid the racism and shit if they have enough money and/or services to provide for themselves and their families. Filling in those social services is huge. Not saying that excuses the racism and everything else.
 
Jimjamesak said:
The major European countries look better because their social systems paper over a lot of cracks. Look underneath the surface and you’ll see the same wealth inequality, but with the added benefit of easier tax avoidance, and the same creeping specter of racism and fascism. Same thing with Canada, Japan, and South Korea too.
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I have no data in front of me to argue, just that anecdotally I’ve never felt the level of inequality in Northern Europe like we have here. Lots of taxes, scaled things like speeding ticket fees based on income, and some genuinely good programs. But anyone thinking it’s a paradise would likely have a rude awakening.
Personally just the idea that the point of life isn’t to work is enough for me to swing my preference
 
psych said:
I’ll take your word for it. I am a privileged white male with all of the perks that come with it, so this may sound incredibly tone deaf, but I’d venture to guess people are better able to put up with/avoid the racism and shit if they have enough money and/or services to provide for themselves and their families. Filling in those social services is huge. Not saying that excuses the racism and everything else.
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Oh they have the same right wing fascists as us, they’re just doing a better job at keeping them contained. Barely. Don’t look at East Germany, or the outskirts of any French city.

Fortunately for the rest of the world, America’s stupidity is a great distraction from their own simmering problems.
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
I have no data in front of me to argue, just that anecdotally I’ve never felt the level of inequality in Northern Europe like we have here. Lots of taxes, scaled things like speeding ticket fees based on income, and some genuinely good programs. But anyone thinking it’s a paradise would likely have a rude awakening.
Personally just the idea that the point of life isn’t to work is enough for me to swing my preference
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I wasn’t talking about the Nordics to be fair. Their systems are definitely ones to be emulated, though there are questions about how that can be done with a larger and more spread out population.
 
Jimjamesak said:
Capitalism doesn’t work because it requires infinite growth, something that is impossible, to feed the greed of the holders of capital aka the wealthy.

And by it’s nature, a free market with guardrails is not a free market.
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All of this! Its why the stock market always "corrects" because sooner or later growth stops. Its why we have to deal with the BS of "the economy is cyclical" yeah because you can only expand so friggin much.

Take social media...there is only a finite amount of people out there...sooner or later you will max out how many people use the product. Once that happens things will start to stagnate...which leads to downturn...which leads to contraction.
 
psych said:
Fair enough. And maybe their way of life works because up until now, they had the United States to supply the money and troops for their defense in the form of NATO, save maybe France, so that they could afford everything else. I won’t claim to know the intricacies. I’m just not sure throwing away capitalism altogether is the best idea. But, I come here for the healthy discussion to see the different perspectives.
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They work because of the bedrock of socialism. Go back and read what I posted before...Europe does that. Capitalism works fine when the people have the basics provided for them. You dont need to rely on "guard rails" to protect the people when the people are at least getting the bare necessities.

Guard rails never work in the long run...jesus the last 10 years have proven that. Guard rails will never solve anything because they are created and enforced by people...and people dont want to be constrained from maximizing potential.

You want capitalism...you need at least half the market socialized and taxes in place to deal with it.
 
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Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
I have no data in front of me to argue, just that anecdotally I’ve never felt the level of inequality in Northern Europe like we have here. Lots of taxes, scaled things like speeding ticket fees based on income, and some genuinely good programs. But anyone thinking it’s a paradise would likely have a rude awakening.
Personally just the idea that the point of life isn’t to work is enough for me to swing my preference
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Utopia is not possible...there is always going to be something that isn't good or ideal. But I would rather deal with the negatives of say, living in the UK or the EU over what we have here. Work/life balance alone on top of not having crippling school debt and worrying that my parents wont be able to live without a job to supplement social security offsets the negatives. We have to beg and scrape to survive and even be middle class...that is (mostly) their baseline.

Academics worry about perfection, you and I just have to worry about what is best for us here in the real world. I will take "safe and secure in life" over the promise of capitalism with guardrails.

(not arguing with you...just ranting)
 
The U.S will always have a trade deficit. We are a rich nation, and because of that, we are a nation of consumers. We use things and then throw them away, and then buy again. The nations we have the most deficit with are consumer poor nations. People are paid peanuts and don't have the disposable income like we do. They basically buy what they need to survive and that is it.

Tariffs are not going to change the trade deficit. The only thing that will is if the American consumer gets poorer, or the foreign consumer gets richer. And with what the foreign workers get paid, tariffs are not going to drive manufacturing back to the U.S. First, building a new manufacturing center now is getting close to being cost prohibitive with tariffs on building supplies. Plus, it takes several years to get up and running. Second, even with the tariffs, in most cases, it is still cheaper for the companies to pay the foreign labor and pay the cost of the tariff than it is to build/move the manufacturing and pay American workers.
 
I think we have a people issue not a system issue. Those 50+ have massively benefited from 25 years of low taxes and high deficits to the detriment of those that are younger(unless you get a lot of money from your family.)
 
psych said:
I’m fine with capitalism with the socialist bedrock. Pure socialism is shit. Pure capitalism is shit. Use both. In my brain, the socialist bedrock is the “guardrail.” Someone falls through the cracks? They have the socialist bedrock to rely on.
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No one is saying that pure socialism is the way...what I said was the best parts of our country are based in socialism not capitalism. You do not base a country on capitalism, hell you dont base an economy on it. You can base things like the Stock Market on it but that is about it. We have been lead to believe the free market helps innovate and that may be true, but it also subjugates on a much higher level and the negatives outweigh the positives across the board. That is why we think having 2 weeks paid vacation is awesome while the rest of the civilized world looks at us like we are friggin indenture servants.

Give me a 70/30 split on socialism to capitalism and I will show you a populace that is likely overall thriving and way less divided.

(I wish I could say this stuff to my students...but I would be free marketed out of a job)
 
Handyman said:
..and people dont want to be constrained from maximizing potential.

You want capitalism...you need at least half the market socialized and taxes in place to deal with it.
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Spot on. No doubt taxes need to be there to catch the folks who don't succeed or need help. The Maga's of course will fight that tooth and nail and there in lies the problem. It would/will take generations to change that.
 
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