Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

He doesn't. He's lost ground across the board. This is how the nomination process works -- once a leader emerges it is supposed to snowball. Biden has got this and Sanders should bow out in the next few weeks. He has some loose ends to negotiate with Biden.

And Biden has to embrace the Left. Welcome them in and reassure them that he wants the Green New Deal, isn't for cutting SS, wants the rich to pay their fair share, and generally overlaps with their platform.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

And Biden has to embrace the Left. Welcome them in and reassure them that he wants the Green New Deal, isn't for cutting SS, wants the rich to pay their fair share, and generally overlaps with their platform.

Overlap/compromise is the key. That's where Bernie loses. This is the progressive plan, that's it. Moderates don't like that, therefore, he's out.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Sweet merciful crap:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Congratulations, Democrats.<br><br>Today, more than 1.36 million voters in Michigan came out to vote for a Democrat.<br><br>Only 500K voters in Michigan came out to vote for Trump. And, Manafort is still in prison so he can’t share Michigan election data with the Russians this year. <a href="https://t.co/krFE58riYR">https://t.co/krFE58riYR</a></p>— Alexandra Chalupa (@AlexandraChalup) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlexandraChalup/status/1237591036324507650?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[aparch]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

A bit of solace for Kepler:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/AOC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AOC</a> on an Instagram livestream, on her future: “We can’t swing from one savior to another. And there’s a lot of saviorism in politics, like ‘Who’s next, who’s going to save us?’ And the answer is you.”<br><br>She says progressives need to focus on shifting attitudes on issues.</p>— Eric Bradner (@ericbradner) <a href="https://twitter.com/ericbradner/status/1237571297820807170?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

A bit of solace for Kepler:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/AOC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AOC</a> on an Instagram livestream, on her future: “We can’t swing from one savior to another. And there’s a lot of saviorism in politics, like ‘Who’s next, who’s going to save us?’ And the answer is you.”<br><br>She says progressives need to focus on shifting attitudes on issues.</p>— Eric Bradner (@ericbradner) <a href="https://twitter.com/ericbradner/status/1237571297820807170?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's great. Thanks.

 

[Handyman]

A bit of solace for Kepler:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/AOC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AOC</a> on an Instagram livestream, on her future: “We can’t swing from one savior to another. And there’s a lot of saviorism in politics, like ‘Who’s next, who’s going to save us?’ And the answer is you.”<br><br>She says progressives need to focus on shifting attitudes on issues.</p>— Eric Bradner (@ericbradner) <a href="https://twitter.com/ericbradner/status/1237571297820807170?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is why she wins. She gets it!

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

According to exit polls in Michigan, Bernie was near 80% under 30, nearly 60% 31-40, and only lost 50%-46% with 41-50 year olds.

So he actually won 50 and under roughly 60% to 35%.

Problem is he lost 50-64 year olds 68% to 24% and 65+ 73% to 21%.

Combined he lost the 50+ group around 69% to 24% and those two groups made up 52% of the electorate.

simple math.

 

[walrus]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

That's great. Thanks.

How before the machine primaries her?

 

[aparch]

How before the machine primaries her?

It already started. Half the field are competing as GOP, so only one of them will take on AOC (or the primary winner) in the general election.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At a time when Democrats correctly attack Republicans for voter suppression, to see voters standing in long lines for hours in Michigan and around America is an outrage. Election officials must address these problems immediately, and if necessary, keep polling places open longer.</p>— Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) <a href="https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1237517018896584704?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Assuming this is what he’s referencing. There have been long lines in college towns. This is the first major election since same day registration became a thing in Michigan. Rollout of a new process and a concentration of people known for procrastination is not a great combination.

THIS is why Democrats need to win the state back. The issue that Bernie brings up here is totally fabricated by our own state, not the Democratic party. Just like other states who make it hard to vote in poor, minority districts, Michigan went down that path many years ago. Hopefully, after 2020, when the new lines are drawn by a logical setting instead of a benefit to one side or the other- the fact that D's tend to have more overall votes than Rs in this state will be reflected in Lansing. Then all of this voter suppression can come to and end.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

And Biden has to embrace the Left. Welcome them in and reassure them that he wants the Green New Deal, isn't for cutting SS, wants the rich to pay their fair share, and generally overlaps with their platform.

Yes, Biden needs to embrace the left. No, he should not bring up the Green New Deal, even if he plans on doing it. All that does is give the R's more fear to run on. We don't need that, not at all. Joe just needs to run on continuing 8 more years of Obama, and keep the negative behind him.

I have a commentary to the GND and other progressives in a min...

 

[alfablue]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

A bit of solace for Kepler:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/AOC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AOC</a> on an Instagram livestream, on her future: “We can’t swing from one savior to another. And there’s a lot of saviorism in politics, like ‘Who’s next, who’s going to save us?’ And the answer is you.”<br><br>She says progressives need to focus on shifting attitudes on issues.</p>— Eric Bradner (@ericbradner) <a href="https://twitter.com/ericbradner/status/1237571297820807170?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If Biden wins, that gives Progressives 4-8 more years to hone their message. And 4-8 more years for their voting base to age- adding more potential voters at the lower end.

And IMHO, given that the author of the Green New Deal was Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she's the true leader of the group, one with a real vision for a real future- 8 more years to groom her to be the leader.

That's a lot of time to get your message across in a positive manner.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

If Biden wins, that gives Progressives 4-8 more years to hone their message. And 4-8 more years for their voting base to age- adding more potential voters at the lower end.

And IMHO, given that the author of the Green New Deal was Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she's the true leader of the group, one with a real vision for a real future- 8 more years to groom her to be the leader.

That's a lot of time to get your message across in a positive manner.

I agree with this.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Yes, Biden needs to embrace the left. No, he should not bring up the Green New Deal, even if he plans on doing it. All that does is give the R's more fear to run on.

Learn from the Republicans. Campaign as a centrist, govern as a radical. Use soothing language and sleight of hand while ramming through as extreme an agenda as you can get away with.

That's how the GOP ratcheted us into hell and that's how we can get out. Is it honest? Hell no. But it works.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

If Biden wins, that gives Progressives 4-8 more years to hone their message. And 4-8 more years for their voting base to age- adding more potential voters at the lower end.

And IMHO, given that the author of the Green New Deal was Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she's the true leader of the group, one with a real vision for a real future- 8 more years to groom her to be the leader.

That's a lot of time to get your message across in a positive manner.

Yes to everything except for the adding voters part. It seems part of Sanders problem is that he's not keeping the people who voted for him last time. Why that is I'm not 100% sure, but its plausible that as people get older their priorities change, and democratic socialism isn't as good of a fit as it was when they were in college or recently graduated.

Rover. I used to weigh 396 lbs. Are you telling me I didn't deserve health care when I was morbidly obese? And by that logic, you're telling me I didn't deserve health care when I weighed 146 and had a hemoglobin level of a mere 6.

This could be the biggest whiff regarding the point of what I posted that I've ever seen, and that includes responses from people like trix! Kudos!

Its obvious that democratic socialism isn't selling to either the Democratic party of the wider electorate. I'm speculating the reason why, even though people would by and large benefit from it unless you're super rich, is that there's no talk anywhere of personal responsibility. In terms of health care, smokers for example would get everything for free, just like everybody else. I'm sorry but that's absurd. People who insist on partaking in their stupid habit should pay more than the rest of us. Its not that smokers don't deserve health care. They do, and smoking cessation programs should be free. BUT, everybody needs to have some skin in the game in terms of their health. Its very similar to education. I had to maintain a certain grade point average to keep a scholarship. That meant skipping a few parties now and again to study for a test or work on a paper. If everything is free, there's no responsibility to do that.

Democratic socialism, if its going to take hold, has to answer these questions especially for people who've already gone through the wars. If not it will continue to generate the votes of broke college kids if they can be bothered and not much else aside from a few aging lefties out here.

 

[state of hockey]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I think a lot of people voted Bernie because they didn't like Hillary. This time around they had other options. Does it make sense from a policy standpoint? Of course not. But people really hated Hillary.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Yes to everything except for the adding voters part. It seems part of Sanders problem is that he's not keeping the people who voted for him last time. Why that is I'm not 100% sure, but its plausible that as people get older their priorities change, and democratic socialism isn't as good of a fit as it was when they were in college or recently graduated.

There's a counter-argument to that: me.

As a freshly minted grad student/young adult I was a classic minarchist/libertarian: unleash individual productivity by getting out of people's way both economically and socially. As I got older and wiser and took on adult responsibilities I realized that (1) we are an inter-dependent community, (2) government is a mechanism for allocating resources one man one vote, whereas libertarian mechanisms allocate resources one dollar one vote, and (3) the idea of equality in bargaining is a myth as almost every negotiation in the absence of regulation and oversight degenerates into the powerful raping the weak. Therefore, as I got older and more responsible I moved farther left and became more radical.

"If you're not a libertarian when you're 20 you're not good at math. If you're not a socialist when you're 40 you're not good at life."

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I think a lot of people voted Bernie because they didn't like Hillary. This time around they had other options. Does it make sense from a policy standpoint? Of course not. But people really hated Hillary.

This may actually be it. It's not socialism or anxiety or sexism. People just hate Hillary and I can't say I blame them.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

There's a counter-argument to that: me.

As a freshly minted grad student/young adult I was a classic minarchist/libertarian: unleash individual productivity by getting out of people's way both economically and socially. As I got older and wiser and took on adult responsibilities I realized that (1) we are an inter-dependent community, (2) government is a mechanism for allocating resources with one man one vote, whereas libertarian mechanisms allocate resources one dollar one vote, and (3) the idea of equality in bargaining is a myth as almost every interaction in the absence of regulation and oversight degenerates into the powerful raping the weak. Therefore, as I got older and more responsible I moved farther left and became more radical.

"If you're not a libertarian when you're 20 you're not good at math. If you're not a socialist when you're 40 you're not good at life."

Putting aside the notion that you might be a little weird , consider your starting point vs the average college aged Sanders supporter. They're already left, if they get any more left they'll be sporting those Fidel Castro hats that I purchased two weeks ago when we all thought the primary would turn out differently. Libertarians are conservatives, only conservatism has now become a money laundering scheme with no other guiding principle except racism.

Maybe both sides end up meeting in the middle and support people like Joe Biden as they age....

 

[alfablue]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Yes to everything except for the adding voters part. It seems part of Sanders problem is that he's not keeping the people who voted for him last time. Why that is I'm not 100% sure, but its plausible that as people get older their priorities change, and democratic socialism isn't as good of a fit as it was when they were in college or recently graduated.

Yes, Bernie could not appeal to them enough to vote. Does that mean nobody can appeal to them enough to vote? If so many younger people support the Green New Deal as much as we are being told they are, then they need to find a real leader to get behind and follow. Bernie was not that person.

4-8 years is a long time to hone your message and inspire people to get out the vote, and someone like AOC can really do that. Remember it took Barack Obama 4 tiny years as a Jr Senator to become President. Alexandria Ocacio-Cortez can certainly hone her message and messaging to inspire people to vote. Let alone use the time to demonstrate that Democratic Socialism is really capitalism with a real conscience and not the numerous failed states in the world.

And in that same time, perhaps some more moderate D will raise out of the ashes and give us a more effective capitalism with a conscience but isn't as far as the GND is. Who knows.