Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Libertarians are conservatives

No, libertarians are on a different axis and equidistant from conservatives and liberals.

Conservatives: free your money and imprison your women
Liberals: free your women and imprison your money
Libertarians: free both
Populists: imprison both

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Putting aside the notion that you might be a little weird

I can't argue with that but I know a few others who have gone my way (though I would: self-selection). And to be fair my best friend started side by side with me and wound up a Dumpy.

Life beats the snot out of us and we carry the marks.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I can't argue with that but I know a few others who have gone my way (though I would: self-selection). And to be fair my best friend started side by side with me and wound up a Dumpy.

Life beats the snot out of us and we carry the marks.

The irony of a dumpy and most conservatives- they hate welfare, except to corporations. It's not fair to give money to a person, it's totally ok to give money to a corporation. Whether either "deserve" it or not.

How they can't see that it's the exact same thing is beyond me.

And its shocking that the "job creation" over all else still rules everything. As if those jobs are any good, as if the harm that is done is ok, all so that some board of directors and shareholders can make a little more of a buck instead of being responsible people.

It seems easy that corporations don't have any responsibility, but all people have to be responsible....

I just don't understand that line of thinking.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Life beats the snot out of us and we carry the marks.

Meh, life is fun. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Yes, Bernie could not appeal to them enough to vote. Does that mean nobody can appeal to them enough to vote? If so many younger people support the Green New Deal as much as we are being told they are, then they need to find a real leader to get behind and follow. Bernie was not that person.

4-8 years is a long time to hone your message and inspire people to get out the vote, and someone like AOC can really do that. Remember it took Barack Obama 4 tiny years as a Jr Senator to become President. Alexandria Ocacio-Cortez can certainly hone her message and messaging to inspire people to vote. Let alone use the time to demonstrate that Democratic Socialism is really capitalism with a real conscience and not the numerous failed states in the world.

That bolded part is the money quote. I'm not sure young people are paying attention enough to even know what the Green New Deal is all about.

Its a proven fact that the smartest and best looking people go to BU (myself, AOC, mookie, etc). Having said that I think people are overestimating AOC's impact on the electorate and legislation. Very few of her preferred candidates are winning nominations (sound familiar?) and she represents an extremely Democratic district which is allowing her the freedom to pursue very progressive issues. I've thus far seen no evidence that she's any better at this than Sanders is although time will tell.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

It doesn't look like that's going to happen. Ingham where MSU is, is already Bernie and still has a lot of votes to report.

Biggest surprise to me tonight is that it looks like Washtenaw, where Ann Arbor is located, is going to finish for Biden. If the Berkeley of the Midwest isn't going to Bernie, it might be time to hang it up.

Surprisingly, it looks like Biden will win all 279 counties in Michigan, Mississippi, and Missouri. That is pretty impressive.

I'll echo what many have already said on here and on TV. The time has come to coalesce behind Biden and now focus all energies on taking down Trump. What would be dramatic and perhaps most effective, would be if Sanders announced at the end of the debate on Sunday that he is suspending his campaign and gives a wholehearted endorsement of Biden.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

The irony of a dumpy and most conservatives- they hate welfare, except to corporations. It's not fair to give money to a person, it's totally ok to give money to a corporation. Whether either "deserve" it or not.

How they can't see that it's the exact same thing is beyond me.

And its shocking that the "job creation" over all else still rules everything. As if those jobs are any good, as if the harm that is done is ok, all so that some board of directors and shareholders can make a little more of a buck instead of being responsible people.

It seems easy that corporations don't have any responsibility, but all people have to be responsible....

I just don't understand that line of thinking.

I wonder if it's something like their Old Testament God. As their power slips away (because of their own votes) and these people feel completely at the mercy of the rich they begin to deify them. From there it's a short step to prayer, worship, and human sacrifice.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I think a lot of people voted Bernie because they didn't like Hillary. This time around they had other options. Does it make sense from a policy standpoint? Of course not. But people really hated Hillary.

I mean, 2016 hurt, but this has to sting pretty bad for her. Hated by righties? Whatever, they’re all idiots. Hated by the Democrats? Ouch.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I mean, 2016 hurt, but this has to sting pretty bad for her. Hated by righties? Whatever, they’re all idiots. Hated by the Democrats? Ouch.

I wouldn't worry about her. She is insulated by so many layers (wealth, power, yes men and women, her own self-confidence) she will never feel even a tinge. To her it's our loss.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Let's not forget that the voters didn't like Elizabeth Warren either and she has none of the negatives that Hillary had. Hillary still was able to rack up a lot of votes in the primaries and in the general. Trump drew an inside straight on the river.

Trump only wins this time with the same things that got it last time. Voter apathy, voter suppression, and an energized Nazi base. In other words not likely. Rachel Bitcofer has documented it all and she's basically saying what happened in 2018 is continuing. The Joe Biden vote seems to confirm that for now.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I mean, 2016 hurt, but this has to sting pretty bad for her. Hated by righties? Whatever, they’re all idiots. Hated by the Democrats? Ouch.

some people didn't hate her but just thought she was unelectable because of "emailz" (and not always because they gave a ****, but because they knew Trump would hammer on that)

 

[alfablue]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Meh, life is fun. Enjoy it while it lasts.



That bolded part is the money quote. I'm not sure young people are paying attention enough to even know what the Green New Deal is all about.

Its a proven fact that the smartest and best looking people go to BU (myself, AOC, mookie, etc). Having said that I think people are overestimating AOC's impact on the electorate and legislation. Very few of her preferred candidates are winning nominations (sound familiar?) and she represents an extremely Democratic district which is allowing her the freedom to pursue very progressive issues. I've thus far seen no evidence that she's any better at this than Sanders is although time will tell.

Yes- it's a big IF. If Bernie's message really resonated with enough people, 4-8 years to work on that is a long time. It could either get footing and stick around, or die off in obscurity.

I kind of bet that more minorities will come around to the message, not the young. And they are the group that the message can be worked on for.

I totally understand that AOC's not got much of a following now, but she's only been a big deal for 2 years as a freshman representative. Given how young she is, there's plenty of time for that the go either direction.

 

[ericredaxe]

I mean, 2016 hurt, but this has to sting pretty bad for her. Hated by righties? Whatever, they’re all idiots. Hated by the Democrats? Ouch.

I’m not sure it was hated so much as the populace was simply tired of the Clintons (and the Bushes to be fair)

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I wouldn't worry about her. She is insulated by so many layers (wealth, power, yes men and women, her own self-confidence) she will never feel even a tinge. To her it's our loss.

Well.... it was. Our loss more than hers.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

The irony of a dumpy and most conservatives- they hate welfare, except to corporations. It's not fair to give money to a person, it's totally ok to give money to a corporation. Whether either "deserve" it or not.

How they can't see that it's the exact same thing is beyond me.

And its shocking that the "job creation" over all else still rules everything. As if those jobs are any good, as if the harm that is done is ok, all so that some board of directors and shareholders can make a little more of a buck instead of being responsible people.

It seems easy that corporations don't have any responsibility, but all people have to be responsible....

I just don't understand that line of thinking.

"Conservatives" don't see it because the echo chambers they have been listening to for the last 30-35 years have been lying to them, every day, over and over, repeating the same lies so many times they now believe them as truths.

Conservative talk radio twits like Limbaugh gained huge audiences in the late 80s and throughout the 90s. Then towards the end of the decade FOX News took the same message to the cable TV universe. Now twitter and facebook perpetuate the endless litany of lies.

Corporate or not (and it certainly was) the vast majority of the news people absorbed in the post-World War II era through the the 1970s,while we truly built a middle class, was accurate and led people to see at least some of what was going on.

It took a few years, but eventually Americans saw the folly of Viet Nam. It took a few years but eventually people saw the evils of segregation and we at least passed sweeping laws that started to make things better. It took a couple of years but eventually people saw the crimes of Nixon. But Water Cronkite, Harry Reasoner and John Chancellor -- who most people were hearing the news from -- were all basically reporting the same news, and for the most part responsibly and accurately. Now anywhere from a third to a half of Americans are hearing outright lies being reported as facts.

Now those on the right seem to take pride in ignorance and anti-intellectualism.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Trump only wins this time with the same things that got it last time. Voter apathy, voter suppression, and an energized Nazi base. In other words not likely. Rachel Bitcofer has documented it all and she's basically saying what happened in 2018 is continuing. The Joe Biden vote seems to confirm that for now.

I hope this is correct. trump will actually have his name on this ballot though. Much like the democratic party post 2008 only seemed to want to make sure it re-elected Obama in 2012 and left the rest up to chance, trump only really cares about re-electing trump. His performance (or lack thereof) during the 2018 mid-terms proved that. He could have been out stumping on how "great" the economy was or some other similar tactics, but he pretty much left it up to chance, and democrats romped to huge gains in the House and state governments all over the place. This one will be all about turnout. If we turn out our voters, we will win. (or be victim of the biggest electoral theft in the history of voting)

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Meh, life is fun. Enjoy it while it lasts.



That bolded part is the money quote. I'm not sure young people are paying attention enough to even know what the Green New Deal is all about.

Its a proven fact that the smartest and best looking people go to BU (myself, AOC, mookie, etc). Having said that I think people are overestimating AOC's impact on the electorate and legislation. Very few of her preferred candidates are winning nominations (sound familiar?) and she represents an extremely Democratic district which is allowing her the freedom to pursue very progressive issues. I've thus far seen no evidence that she's any better at this than Sanders is although time will tell.

Just because the candidates she supports dont do well doesnt mean what you think it means. Her value is in branding and using her cushy seat to get stuff out there to the larger product. She also knows how to play the game which is something the younger Dems seem to lack.

She is Patient Zero...she makes the things we want mainstream by pushing them from a position of power.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Surprisingly, it looks like Biden will win all 279 counties in Michigan, Mississippi, and Missouri. That is pretty impressive.

I'll echo what many have already said on here and on TV. The time has come to coalesce behind Biden and now focus all energies on taking down Trump. What would be dramatic and perhaps most effective, would be if Sanders announced at the end of the debate on Sunday that he is suspending his campaign and gives a wholehearted endorsement of Biden.

IMHO Sanders has every right to stay in and contest the primary until Biden clinches the majority of the delegates. He needs to ditch the scorched earth campaign but he has his ideas and if wants to stick around just in case Biden does something disqualifying along the way, so be it. But, I do have to wonder if he's doing his movement more harm than good but suffering ever larger double digit loses in states that he had previously done well in.

So, go to the debate, then let AZ-IL-FL-OH, etc have their say on Tuesday. Same with Georgia the following week. The parameters of this race are already clear. Either you vote for, or you vote against, Nazism. The Dem primary going a few more weeks won't change that, and frankly I don't mind seeing a test run in some of these key states to see if there are going to be any of those mysterious ballot access and polling place problems that always seem to crop up in GOP run states.

. She also knows how to play the game which is something the younger Dems seem to lack.

She is Patient Zero...she makes the things we want mainstream by pushing them from a position of power.

I'd never underestimate the power of a fellow Terrier, but I don't yet get the sense that she knows how the play the game except on twitter. I'm hopeful she can have an impact but she's not there yet. Getting likeminded people elected is how you gain influence. If anything the crop of Dems elected in 2018 strengthened the Biden/Pelosi wing's hand.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Let's not forget that the voters didn't like Elizabeth Warren either and she has none of the negatives that Hillary had.

I think if Warren had run with nobody to her left it would have been down to Biden and her. I also think that would have been a split right down the middle of the party that may have gone to the convention.

My perfect world preference was 1. Warren, 2. Sanders, 3. Harris. Biden was somewhere in the high single digits. But again it isn't as if any of these candidates was terrible. We had one loser (Gabbard) and one fraud (Bloomberg) and the rest were fine.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Let's not forget that the voters didn't like Elizabeth Warren either and she has none of the negatives that Hillary had. Hillary still was able to rack up a lot of votes in the primaries and in the general. Trump drew an inside straight on the river.

Trump only wins this time with the same things that got it last time. Voter apathy, voter suppression, and an energized Nazi base. In other words not likely. Rachel Bitcofer has documented it all and she's basically saying what happened in 2018 is continuing. The Joe Biden vote seems to confirm that for now.

This. And the key is that the demos are holding. Biden is getting all of the people who voted in the Blue Wave to come out for him. If that holds Trump is in huge trouble.

 

[aparch]

... We had one loser (Gabbard) ...

She's still in the running.