D3 Frozen Four

[nbound]

Instead of wasting space in other threads, why not just start it's own.

Should the FF be held at a MIAC site, a NCHA site or a neutral site out West. This way Western hockey fans will be able to see some great hockey.

There have been good Western teams that have been screwed in the past by being omitted from an Eastern FF.
If it is held out West this year there will be one or two deserving Eastern teams that will be getting the short end. Let the whining begin.



valiantfan08
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 48

Re: Women's DIII 2009-2010 Fan Opinion Poll
It would be a shame if they force it out West when a team may not deserve to be in the NCAA tournament...

 

[nyi19]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

Instead of wasting space in other threads, why not just start it's own.

Should the FF be held at a MIAC site, a NCHA site or a neutral site out West. This way Western hockey fans will be able to see some great hockey.

There have been good Western teams that have been screwed in the past by being omitted from an Eastern FF.
If it is held out West this year there will be one or two deserving Eastern teams that will be getting the short end. Let the whining begin.



valiantfan08
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 48

Re: Women's DIII 2009-2010 Fan Opinion Poll
It would be a shame if they force it out West when a team may not deserve to be in the NCAA tournament...

And you can guarantee they will be deserving because the only four national champions in the history of division III hockey will not be there because only two east teams can make it if the FF is out west. Your move.

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

And you can guarantee they will be deserving because the only four national champions in the history of division III hockey will not be there because only two east teams can make it if the FF is out west. Your move.

So because Elmira won the national title in '02 & '03 they automatically should be put in the final four?

Last season only 2 of the previous 3 were in the frozen four and it was out east. Your argument is in a word--Stupid.

There is no possible way that all 4 of the previous winners can be in the frozen four, it would be fairly impossible for 3 of the 4 to make it in any given year.

ya---maybe Middlebury gets left out and a western team gets in. Know what--Middlebury should have won the nescac tournament then. I've been told that 100 times over the past 5 or 6 years when I say western teams got left out, due to money/location. After the past 2 weeks does Middlebury deserve to be in...maybe not?

Just because it is out west doesn't guarantee a 2-2 split. A couple years ago the NCAA shocked the D3 mens world when they decided to have a 3-1 split at the FF in Superior. If they have any integrity whatsoever, the FF will be out in the West--probably at Lake Forest or River Falls--regardless of what the split is.

Does anyone know if there are hosting requirements for the D3 women's FF like there is with the men's? Do they have to have 4 locker rooms, etc? That might limit some of the hosting capabilities.

 

[nyi19]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

So because Elmira won the national title in '02 & '03 they automatically should be put in the final four?

Last season only 2 of the previous 3 were in the frozen four and it was out east. Your argument is in a word--Stupid.

There is no possible way that all 4 of the previous winners can be in the frozen four, it would be fairly impossible for 3 of the 4 to make it in any given year.

ya---maybe Middlebury gets left out and a western team gets in. Know what--Middlebury should have won the nescac tournament then. I've been told that 100 times over the past 5 or 6 years when I say western teams got left out, due to money/location. After the past 2 weeks does Middlebury deserve to be in...maybe not?

Just because it is out west doesn't guarantee a 2-2 split. A couple years ago the NCAA shocked the D3 mens world when they decided to have a 3-1 split at the FF in Superior. If they have any integrity whatsoever, the FF will be out in the West--probably at Lake Forest or River Falls--regardless of what the split is.

Does anyone know if there are hosting requirements for the D3 women's FF like there is with the men's? Do they have to have 4 locker rooms, etc? That might limit some of the hosting capabilities.

My argument wasn't that all of the teams should always be included. Give my intelligence some credit — I'm smarter than that. But that more than likely, the winner of the NESCAC and ECACW is a former national champion now and gets in regardless and probably beats another former national champion to get the automatic bid, barring RIT making a statement this year.

I'd love for it to go out west. But not because they feel bad. Because a team proves worthy. If that team be River Falls this year, that's fine. The more competition the better. All of these arguments over whether the west or east is better mean nothing if they never get the chance to play each other. Maybe the west should get more than one team just so the entire fate of the region is not left with a River Falls or Superior as it was two years ago. The only way to settle is for the west to make a statement against an east team. And a west team hasn't made the title game since 2004...the only time it happened. Say what you want about home ice and this and that, but the teams arrive two days in advance and get at least one practice on the ice they play the FF on. That excuse can only go so far.

 

[spike]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

My argument wasn't that all of the teams should always be included. Give my intelligence some credit — I'm smarter than that. But that more than likely, the winner of the NESCAC and ECACW is a former national champion now and gets in regardless and probably beats another former national champion to get the automatic bid, barring RIT making a statement this year.

I'd love for it to go out west. But not because they feel bad. Because a team proves worthy. If that team be River Falls this year, that's fine. The more competition the better. All of these arguments over whether the west or east is better mean nothing if they never get the chance to play each other. Maybe the west should get more than one team just so the entire fate of the region is not left with a River Falls or Superior as it was two years ago. The only way to settle is for the west to make a statement against an east team. And a west team hasn't made the title game since 2004...the only time it happened. Say what you want about home ice and this and that, but the teams arrive two days in advance and get at least one practice on the ice they play the FF on. That excuse can only go so far.

This is a discussion that i've seen on various threads every year since I began reading this forum. I think the real issue is as follows:

There's no question that tournament-worthy teams from the West deserve an opportunity to host, especially when everyone seems to think that traveling East creates such a disadvantage. I approach this from a different angle. Suppose the NCAA was willing to go 4-3 eastern teams with a Western FF. Thus, they would have to fly two Eastern teams West. Or, if they opt to go 4-3 Western teams, also flying two Eastern teams West. In either of those scenarios, here is my question-does the MIAC runner up or NCHA runner up (or both in a 4-3 Western split) deserve to be in the tournament more than the ECAC-W and NESCAC runner ups? Even with a 4-3 Eastern split, between Platty, Elmira, RIT, Amherst, Midd, and Trinity, at least three of those teams would be on the outside looking in. And, in a 4-3 Western split, four of those six teams would be left out. Is the NCHA or MIAC runner up more deserving than all of those teams? When I look at it from that viewpoint I can't help but answer, No, they aren't, at least not this year.

So, we are left with this. If the NCAA truly wanted to have the best field, they could do a 5-2 Eastern split, with 3 Eastern teams flying West. However, we all know the likelihood of that happening, don't we? So, the only fair alternative this year is another Eastern FF.

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

Is the NCHA or MIAC runner up more deserving than all of those teams? When I look at it from that viewpoint I can't help but answer, No, they aren't, at least not this year.

I don't know how that statement can be made...there is no way of knowing the answer to that question.

Its going to come down to the 2nd place NESCAC(currently Middlebury/Trinity) and the 3rd Place ECAC W team(currently Utica). With a 5-2 split both get in. 4-3 split 1 gets in? Lets say Superior finishes second in the NCHA, Middlebury 2nd in the NESCAC...how can you say Middlebury deserves it over Superior? Would Utica get in over Superior...probably not. The MIAC runner up will not be in the running.

You say the east team should go, because in your mind the east is better then the west. Like was mentioned before...there have been plenty of years where a team equally deserving in the west was left out, because a team in the east got the nod.

There are only a handful of cross region games...most of them involving Adrian, who I have heard a rumor regarding program troubles, and then the Lake Forest games. I really don't think you can base the strength of a whole region on just the outcome of 5-6 games.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

Does anyone know if there are hosting requirements for the D3 women's FF like there is with the men's? Do they have to have 4 locker rooms, etc? That might limit some of the hosting capabilities.

Yes, there are requirements and four locker rooms is a must along with a variety of others too.

There is a full listing on the NCAA page in the Championships hosting handbook if you are interested.

I really think it's going west this year despite what everyone seems to think.

It's an actual rule that unless amended, it HAS to be in the west this year.

 

[spwood]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

I really think it's going west this year despite what everyone seems to think.

It's an actual rule that unless amended, it HAS to be in the west this year.

So if that's the case, how about a list of legimate contenders that fulfill the requirements? Hasn't been an issue in the past (on the men's side) to find qualified facilities willing to host out west?

 

[Mr. Kitty]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

So it's the "Final Four", right? The "Frozen Four" is taken, am I correct?

I vote for Lake Forest since they seem to be on major airline/bus routes. Do they have the facilities?

I think it would be a hoot if RIT (by winning ECACW) got to go and the reigning mini-tournament winner(in the recent Panther-Cardinal Classic), Elmira, had to stay home. Trinity might even be representing NESCAC -- think of all the new ntl champion possibilities

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

Yes, there are requirements and four locker rooms is a must along with a variety of others too.

There is a full listing on the NCAA page in the Championships hosting handbook if you are interested.

I really think it's going west this year despite what everyone seems to think.

It's an actual rule that unless amended, it HAS to be in the west this year.

The Division III Championships Committee has prioritized the site-selection criteria
in the following order for the Division III championships:
1. Quality and availability of the facility and other necessary accommodations;
2. Geographical location (including such factors as rotation of sites, weather, accessibility
and transportation costs);
3. Seeding; and
4. Attendance history and revenue potential, which shall be considered necessary to assure fiscal responsibility.

This is all i can find....is it somewhere else...I was looking in the 2009 Women's D3 Championship Handbook

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

So it's the "Final Four", right? The "Frozen Four" is taken, am I correct?

I vote for Lake Forest since they seem to be on major airline/bus routes. Do they have the facilities?

I think it would be a hoot if RIT (by winning ECACW) got to go and the reigning mini-tournament winner(in the recent Panther-Cardinal Classic), Elmira, had to stay home. Trinity might even be representing NESCAC -- think of all the new ntl champion possibilities

If you want to be completely correct it's actually NCAA Division III Women's Ice Hockey Championships

The Frozen Four and Final Four are trademarked with the NCAA and only allowed to be used for the D-I men's and women's tournaments.

Places I know for a fact in the west that could host are:

Superior, Stevens Point, and River Falls.

I'm pretty sure Gustavus and St. Thomas can as well.

Not sure on Lake Forest.

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

So it's the "Final Four", right? The "Frozen Four" is taken, am I correct?

I vote for Lake Forest since they seem to be on major airline/bus routes. Do they have the facilities?

If they have the same requirements as the men, I'm guessing not.

Their rink only seats 1500....which I know you are all think is way more than enough. I think their are more MIAC teams that would fit the hosting requirements, but many of them have no chance of being there. Like St. Bens at the National Hockey Center in St Cloud, I know a couple teams play at the Schwann's Cup arena..which would clearly be big enough. I am pretty sure Gustavus meets all the requirements.

Wessman at Superior meets all the requirements, Hunt Arena at RF might, if Stevens Point hosted at their men's rink...that is a small possibility

 

[spike]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

I don't know how that statement can be made...there is no way of knowing the answer to that question.

Its going to come down to the 2nd place NESCAC(currently Middlebury/Trinity) and the 3rd Place ECAC W team(currently Utica). With a 5-2 split both get in. 4-3 split 1 gets in? Lets say Superior finishes second in the NCHA, Middlebury 2nd in the NESCAC...how can you say Middlebury deserves it over Superior? Would Utica get in over Superior...probably not. The MIAC runner up will not be in the running.

You say the east team should go, because in your mind the east is better then the west. Like was mentioned before...there have been plenty of years where a team equally deserving in the west was left out, because a team in the east got the nod.

There are only a handful of cross region games...most of them involving Adrian, who I have heard a rumor regarding program troubles, and then the Lake Forest games. I really don't think you can base the strength of a whole region on just the outcome of 5-6 games.

Well, I suppose we could agree to disagree, but please be clear, I am not saying East is better than West. I'd like to think the top 2 Western teams could compete favorably with their Eastern counterparts. What I am saying is that so far this year, the 4th, 5th, and 6th best Eastern teams appear to be more tournament worthy than their Western counterparts. Plus, my analysis didn't even include the possibility that Norwich gets it rolling again as well. If UWS, RF, UST and GAC start rolling, I'll feel differently.

 

[Matt Rennell]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

This is all i can find....is it somewhere else...I was looking in the 2009 Women's D3 Championship Handbook

How about this...

 

[4and20]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

How about this...

It is really only a recommendation. I will believe it when I see it.

 

[Matt Rennell]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

It is really only a recommendation. I will believe it when I see it.

How is that only a recommendation? It clearly states that based on a recommendation by the NCAA Division III Women's Ice Hockey Committee, the NCAA Division III Championship Committee has approved the notion that if one region doesn't host for three consecutive years, they will host the fourth year, regardless of the participants. Meaning even if it is a 3/1 east/west split, it is heading west.

The only way this will NOT happen is if the committee formally votes to remove this rule from the tournament process. As of now, to my knowledge this has not happened and there is no discussion that it will.

If in fact this does get reversed, (which there is not so much as a whisper that it will), then feel free to gripe.

 

[Watch Dawg]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

If they have the same requirements as the men, I'm guessing not.

Their rink only seats 1500....which I know you are all think is way more than enough. I think their are more MIAC teams that would fit the hosting requirements, but many of them have no chance of being there. Like St. Bens at the National Hockey Center in St Cloud, I know a couple teams play at the Schwann's Cup arena..which would clearly be big enough. I am pretty sure Gustavus meets all the requirements.

Wessman at Superior meets all the requirements, Hunt Arena at RF might, if Stevens Point hosted at their men's rink...that is a small possibility

No way Lake Forest hosts at their on-campus rink. Probably the worst facility in D3 women's hockey. Although, from my experience, New England College could give them a run for the money. However, there are many excellent facilities in the area that could be used as an alternative. The problem would be reserving a rink and waiting for the NCAA to make the final determination. It is playoff time for everyone and the rinks are booked well in advance.

 

[on2thinice]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

I heard somewhere last season that the NCAA was thinking of having the D-I and D-III championships on the same weekend in the same venue, have you heard anything further on this?

 

[Plugger]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

How is that only a recommendation? It clearly states that based on a recommendation by the NCAA Division III Women's Ice Hockey Committee, the NCAA Division III Championship Committee has approved the notion that if one region doesn't host for three consecutive years, they will host the fourth year, regardless of the participants. Meaning even if it is a 3/1 east/west split, it is heading west.

The only way this will NOT happen is if the committee formally votes to remove this rule from the tournament process. As of now, to my knowledge this has not happened and there is no discussion that it will.

If in fact this does get reversed, (which there is not so much as a whisper that it will), then feel free to gripe.

Matt - Thanks for the update. It seems fair, as long as the NCAA does the right thing and pays for the 3 teams from out east that would most likely have to travel west. How much do you think this would cost the NC$$?

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Frozen Four

I heard somewhere last season that the NCAA was thinking of having the D-I and D-III championships on the same weekend in the same venue, have you heard anything further on this?

It would be logical...would have been nice the other year when the FF was in Duluth...UWS made the FF that year.

With it being at the Ridder this season that would be a prime location and time. They usually are the same weekend