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Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
- Thread starter joecct
- Start date
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Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
I'm not so sure of that, I think that if you include gun suicides, homicides by gun and accidental gun deaths, total gun deaths exceed automotive accident deaths.
Of course, no single database exists for gun deaths because the CDC isn't able to track that information.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
Including war deaths is silly and disingenuous, and you know it.
Perhaps.
Including war deaths is silly and disingenuous, and you know it.
Perhaps.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
The two are close on an annual basis:
Well:
Non-suicide gun deaths: 13,440 source: http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls
Suicide gun deaths: 21,175 source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/
Total: 34,615
Traffic fatalities: 38,300 source: http://www.nsc.org/Connect/NSCNewsReleases/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?List=1f2e4535-5dc3-45d6-b190-9b49c7229931&ID=103&var=hppress&Web=36d1832e-7bc3-4029-98a1-317c5cd5c625
These are all estimates, but I'd argue that the net benefit to society of automobiles is much greater than that of guns, certainly more than the 10% difference in these numbers.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
OK. The stats have narrowed over the years, due to efforts to make cars safer. I'll concede that.
OK. The stats have narrowed over the years, due to efforts to make cars safer. I'll concede that.
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
And that's the costs in lives. What about the value to society of the automobile vs. a gun?
Supply and demand or market prices show the relative value of products/services based on what people will pay for them. Per Kelly Blue Book, the average market price (the price society pays) for a new car is $33k and there's a car in the US in circulation for every American. The market price of a gun is what $100? Costs in lives nearly the same, benefit to society a tiny fraction. Guns aren't comparable to cars.
And that's the costs in lives. What about the value to society of the automobile vs. a gun?
Supply and demand or market prices show the relative value of products/services based on what people will pay for them. Per Kelly Blue Book, the average market price (the price society pays) for a new car is $33k and there's a car in the US in circulation for every American. The market price of a gun is what $100? Costs in lives nearly the same, benefit to society a tiny fraction. Guns aren't comparable to cars.
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
Oh sorry, is it $33,000?
Not to the US public, it ain't.
Oh sorry, is it $33,000?
Not to the US public, it ain't.
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
Forget it, he's rolling. /AnimalHouse
Forget it, he's rolling. /AnimalHouse
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
Sorry Brent. But fans of guns do not discuss the issues or facts. Most fight for every inch and then when the facts hit the table, they walk away. It happens every time. Cue dx.
Sorry Brent. But fans of guns do not discuss the issues or facts. Most fight for every inch and then when the facts hit the table, they walk away. It happens every time. Cue dx.
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
I'm pro-gun. As we've seen with the German attack and the Nice attack, it's not the tool at hand. It's the tool that uses the weapon at hand. For me, if you pass two mental health checks by doctors, have a clean record, and a clean background check (no matter HOW the gun is sold to you), have at it, boss. Buy a gun. Buy 5.
And don't start on the semi-automatic argument. That's been debunked so many times it's sick.
I'm pro-gun. As we've seen with the German attack and the Nice attack, it's not the tool at hand. It's the tool that uses the weapon at hand. For me, if you pass two mental health checks by doctors, have a clean record, and a clean background check (no matter HOW the gun is sold to you), have at it, boss. Buy a gun. Buy 5.
And don't start on the semi-automatic argument. That's been debunked so many times it's sick.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
Oh yeah, because fans of absolute gun bans ALWAYS argue with "facts".
Oh yeah, because fans of absolute gun bans ALWAYS argue with "facts".
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
As I've said, I respect you as a poster because you actually are here to discuss issues.
But what do the German and Nice attacks have in common? They both happened in Europe. In the US, neither would mess around with trying to line up pedestrians or trying to take on a train with an axe. They just buy a gun. And super tight guns laws in Europe don't allow that. The US has a gun death related homicide that's 15x that of France and 40x that of German. Just the fact that this recent terrorist on the German train didn't have a gun due to tight gun laws...probably more than made up for years of any potential concealed weapon vigilante 'heros'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
As I said, I agree with you that people should buy guns but with much tighter security. But the problem are the carry laws. They put those in the vicinity of a gun at risk...and the innocents have no say and probably knowledge of the risk to them. As I mentioned before, the government always forces companies to report risks their products provide to society...gun owners do not have that requirement.
As I've said, I respect you as a poster because you actually are here to discuss issues.
But what do the German and Nice attacks have in common? They both happened in Europe. In the US, neither would mess around with trying to line up pedestrians or trying to take on a train with an axe. They just buy a gun. And super tight guns laws in Europe don't allow that. The US has a gun death related homicide that's 15x that of France and 40x that of German. Just the fact that this recent terrorist on the German train didn't have a gun due to tight gun laws...probably more than made up for years of any potential concealed weapon vigilante 'heros'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
As I said, I agree with you that people should buy guns but with much tighter security. But the problem are the carry laws. They put those in the vicinity of a gun at risk...and the innocents have no say and probably knowledge of the risk to them. As I mentioned before, the government always forces companies to report risks their products provide to society...gun owners do not have that requirement.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
I have a hard time respecting your position on this, 5mn, simply because you openly seem to treat anyone who applies to buy a gun, or owns guns, as a potential extremist.
As I said, I favor more control, but I in no way favor a total ban. I know for a fact that you will have a hard time legislating "carry" rules, nor do I think they will help much. Just to be hypothetical, would I be violating your "carry" laws if I'm carrying an unloaded gun from my deer blind, across a major US highway (US 31, FWIW), to my residence?
I have a hard time respecting your position on this, 5mn, simply because you openly seem to treat anyone who applies to buy a gun, or owns guns, as a potential extremist.
As I said, I favor more control, but I in no way favor a total ban. I know for a fact that you will have a hard time legislating "carry" rules, nor do I think they will help much. Just to be hypothetical, would I be violating your "carry" laws if I'm carrying an unloaded gun from my deer blind, across a major US highway (US 31, FWIW), to my residence?
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
That doesn't mean that guns aren't infinitely more problematic than cars, knives or any other possible method when it comes to choosing one to commit mayhem. The scale, scope and capabilities overall are not comparable. That someone might "just choose another device" does not account for the absurd disparity in deaths by gun vs. any other chosen method out there and it's complete rubbish to argue that if x # of guns by death were avoided in any given year that every one of them would just be replaced by another means.
I do not call for a ban on guns on any grand scale, but do not use obfuscations as a means to fight against any such proposals.
That doesn't mean that guns aren't infinitely more problematic than cars, knives or any other possible method when it comes to choosing one to commit mayhem. The scale, scope and capabilities overall are not comparable. That someone might "just choose another device" does not account for the absurd disparity in deaths by gun vs. any other chosen method out there and it's complete rubbish to argue that if x # of guns by death were avoided in any given year that every one of them would just be replaced by another means.
I do not call for a ban on guns on any grand scale, but do not use obfuscations as a means to fight against any such proposals.
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unofan
Well-known member
I disagree completely. The transcontinental railroad, the interstate highway system, and the airplane are all infinitely more valuable.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
This is pretty much how I feel. I've offered plenty of proposals that 5mm has either forgotten or ignored. They move the needle and are generally accepted by gun owners.
He, on the other hand, has steadfastly stuck by his stance that guns and gun owners are evil.
This is pretty much how I feel. I've offered plenty of proposals that 5mm has either forgotten or ignored. They move the needle and are generally accepted by gun owners.
He, on the other hand, has steadfastly stuck by his stance that guns and gun owners are evil.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
Without the firearm we'd still be speaking kings English.
Without the firearm we'd still be speaking kings English.
Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!
).
Imagine someone with an agenda driving a service vehicle of some sort at the MN State Fair down the middle of the road. Imagine if s/he decided to floor it? Nice Part 2. Scary thought, but it can happen.....
I agree they are more problematic, but again, that goes back to the owners/users. It's my belief that it's the American mentality. That's the problem. We're too quick to pull a gun to settle a difference or slight. Do the loopholes/etc help contribute to that? Yes. I am not stubborn enough to deny that (and I'm rather stubborn, as most of you can attest to
). Imagine someone with an agenda driving a service vehicle of some sort at the MN State Fair down the middle of the road. Imagine if s/he decided to floor it? Nice Part 2. Scary thought, but it can happen.....
unofan
Well-known member
Without transportation, we'd be India.
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