Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

What difference does it make? Ohio is an open carry state which means even if he had a real gun, the kid wasn't doing anything illegal. Do you not understand what open carry means?

A black man would be insane to open carry in 99% of the country.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

A black man would be insane to open carry in 99% of the country.

And isn't that the point? The cops should be held accountable for their actions when they basically shot a 12 year old kid because it was black.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Honest question, but open carry has some theoretical limit on what you can do while carrying, correct? I couldn't just put my gun in the face of people walking by me on the street, right? At some point your behavior could possibly cross the line to where you are a threat and action would need to be taken?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Honest question, but open carry has some theoretical limit on what you can do while carrying, correct? I couldn't just put my gun in the face of people walking by me on the street, right? At some point your behavior could possibly cross the line to where you are a threat and action would need to be taken?

Sure, but being black isnt one of them. And don't you think after watching that video, what those cops did at least deserves them being charged? If you can watch that video and think that the cops acted in a way that should not result in them being charged there not being any trial, I don't get it.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

What difference does it make? Ohio is an open carry state which means even if he had a real gun, the kid wasn't doing anything illegal. Do you not understand what open carry means?

I think that if you have a handgun in your pocket, or the waist of your pants, and as cops come screeching up in their car, you draw that gun, or even start to draw that gun, you're going to get shot. I think that's pretty likely if you are white or black or asian or whatever, and whether it's a conceal/carry state or not. That is one of the reasons I simply choose not to walk around with a gun, even if it's in holster or "concealed." The minute someone (cop, or any other armed person) sees you put that gun in your hand, or even make a move to put it in your hand, you are a threat.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

I think that if you have a handgun in your pocket, or the waist of your pants, and as cops come screeching up in their car, you draw that gun, or even start to draw that gun, you're going to get shot. I think that's pretty likely if you are white or black or asian or whatever, and whether it's a conceal/carry state or not. That is one of the reasons I simply choose not to walk around with a gun, even if it's in holster or "concealed." The minute someone (cop, or any other armed person) sees you put that gun in your hand, or even make a move to put it in your hand, you are a threat.

So the cops did nothing wrong and there shouldn't be a trial? got it.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Here is another thought on these cop cases.

Personally I think that some cases should be prosecuted. But I think those cases have to, at a minimum, have the type of evidence that we saw in the Chicago case with the guy with the knife who was shot 16-17 times as he walked away from the cops without making any sort of move towards them.

You'd never get a conviction in the Cleveland case. Isn't going to happen, even if it is a toy gun and a 12 year old.

It seems some want to simply charge every cop who shoots someone, and if the political pressure keeps getting ramped up, we may see that eventually. But I would submit it's going to be counter-productive. You're going to get a bunch of acquittals. Then what? Haven't you just further emboldened the police?

Jeez, we couldn't get a conviction in the original Rodney King trial.

I believe we really need to work at these things from an employment standpoint. Basically, you shoot someone as a cop, you never carry a gun again. Maybe even make it easier to get rid of them from the force. Then, if sufficiently strong facts exist, prosecute criminally. The primary thing is to just get these guys off the force.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

So the cops did nothing wrong and there shouldn't be a trial? got it.

Let me ask you this. What do you suppose the reaction was of the cop who shot this kid, once he discovered that it was a 12 year old with a toy gun? My guess is he was horrified. If you think that his reaction was to just carve one more notch in the butt of his revolver, then I guess we have a different perspective of the world.

The problem is, the cop gets out of his car a matter of feet from this person who the dispatcher has reported as a "male with a handgun, waving it around at people", and you see him reach into the waste of his pants and start to draw out something that looks (by design) exactly like a handgun. I have a feeling the adrenaline with these cops was already pumping full bore (told guy with gun, waving it around, will do that).

In hindsight would everyone, including the cop, have preferred that he take a chance with his own life that the kid wasn't going to shoot him, and order the kid to put his hands up, or drop the gun, or maybe even pull a Lone Ranger and shoot the gun out of the kid's hand. Sure.

 

[joecct]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Let me ask you this. What do you suppose the reaction was of the cop who shot this kid, once he discovered that it was a 12 year old with a toy gun? My guess is he was horrified. If you think that his reaction was to just carve one more notch in the butt of his revolver, then I guess we have a different perspective of the world.

The problem is, the cop gets out of his car a matter of feet from this person who the dispatcher has reported as a "male with a handgun, waving it around at people", and you see him reach into the waste of his pants and start to draw out something that looks (by design) exactly like a handgun. I have a feeling the adrenaline with these cops was already pumping full bore (told guy with gun, waving it around, will do that).

In hindsight would everyone, including the cop, have preferred that he take a chance with his own life that the kid wasn't going to shoot him, and order the kid to put his hands up, or drop the gun, or maybe even pull a Lone Ranger and shoot the gun out of the kid's hand. Sure.

I think he reaches into the waste of his pants after he shoots the 12 year old kid.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Let me ask you this. What do you suppose the reaction was of the cop who shot this kid, once he discovered that it was a 12 year old with a toy gun? My guess is he was horrified. If you think that his reaction was to just carve one more notch in the butt of his revolver, then I guess we have a different perspective of the world.

The problem is, the cop gets out of his car a matter of feet from this person who the dispatcher has reported as a "male with a handgun, waving it around at people", and you see him reach into the waste of his pants and start to draw out something that looks (by design) exactly like a handgun. I have a feeling the adrenaline with these cops was already pumping full bore (told guy with gun, waving it around, will do that).

In hindsight would everyone, including the cop, have preferred that he take a chance with his own life that the kid wasn't going to shoot him, and order the kid to put his hands up, or drop the gun, or maybe even pull a Lone Ranger and shoot the gun out of the kid's hand. Sure.

Does that really matter? If a citizen did the same thing, do you really think they're not indicted? How is no indictment better than acquittal? They both look bad. Does a cop really deserve to not go through a trial because he feels bad about killing a kid? If I killed a kid in what I thought was self defense, I'd feel horrible too, but that doesn't change the fact that I killed a kid for the wrong reasons, and I should go to jail for my actions. A cop shouldn't be treated differently than you or I. We shouldn't live in a shoot first ask questions later world.

You watch that video and while they do cut out parts of it and I haven't sat through all 12 minutes they have before the cops roll up, but I didn't see him point a gun at anyone, or really interact with anyone but the police who shot him. I don't really understand why they'd roll up like that in that situation. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to go into a situation like that the way they did. They acted like he'd already shot someone.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

And isn't that the point?

Yes, it is exactly the point.

Whenever the ahem "Constitutionalist" activists gather to hump the Second Amendment publicly I always want to see an equal sized crowd of fully armed blacks and/or Muslims come up the other way.

I wonder who the cops would hassle? (That is: who they would feel they ought to hassle in order to do their job responsibly.)

"Freedom for me but not for thee." The old story.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

In hindsight would everyone, including the cop, have preferred that he take a chance with his own life that the kid wasn't going to shoot him, and order the kid to put his hands up, or drop the gun, or maybe even pull a Lone Ranger and shoot the gun out of the kid's hand. Sure.

I don't think you're understanding what's wrong, though. The question is not "how could someone die over a toy gun" but why is there a different likelihood of getting killed by accident for a white or black child holding a toy gun. A policeman with the very best intentions is still reacting to the widespread racism that poisons our air by treating the two cases differently.

We're not saying the cop is a bad person nor even that a mistake is inexcusable (in fact, a mistake in this environment with guns flooding our society seems inevitable). We're saying many people, likely even the majority, have this poison in their veins, and cops happen to be stuck with the ability (or the vulnerability) that their actions express this difference in matters of life and death. The rest are lucky in that their split second racist impulses result at worst with a slur (or a broken nose).

If anybody should be upset with the racist narratives that conflate poverty, danger, violence and race, it's the cops themselves, since as you point out they are far more likely than anybody (except the victims) to bear lifelong trauma from these mistakes.

 

[joecct]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

...I wonder who the cops would hassle?...

The ones who are breaking the law. If there's a doubt, my emanations beat your emanations.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

The ones who are breaking the law. If there's a doubt, my emanations beat your emanations.

The point is, what if nobody's breaking the law? If you can argue with a straight face that 12 blacks guys with guns and 12 white guys with guns will provoke the same reaction then I really, really never want to play poker with you.

And don't get your emanations on me. Or your penumbras. Ew.

 

[unofan]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

The problem is, the cop gets out of his car a matter of feet from this person who the dispatcher has reported as a "male with a handgun, waving it around at people", and you see him reach into the waste of his pants and start to draw out something that looks (by design) exactly like a handgun. I have a feeling the adrenaline with these cops was already pumping full bore (told guy with gun, waving it around, will do that).

Here's the question I had about that one. Why did the cop pull up within a matter of feet of the kid? My understanding, and I might be misremembering, is that he had to jump a curb and basically drive off road to get the car to that point. If he's worried about his safety, why not stop at a distance and see what happens instead of going full bore Rambo from the start?

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

I don't think you're understanding what's wrong, though. The question is not "how could someone die over a toy gun" but why is there a different likelihood of getting killed by accident for a white or black child holding a toy gun.

Who says there is? Do we have a laundry list of cases of kids getting shot with toy gun to analyze? Yes, I am aware blacks get shot by cops. Often. How many cases of whites being found in the same position (gun in hand/proximity to hand with cops bearing down) that don't get shot do you have to present as evidence the supposed differing results are racist in nature?

A policeman with the very best intentions is still reacting to the widespread racism that poisons our air by treating the two cases differently.

If the cops were told, "man waving gun around in a park" and upon rolling up to the scene see said perp looking like they are reaching for said gun how are they supposed to react? Maybe the story isn't that cut and dry, but then present reasons why it is not.

We're saying many people, likely even the majority, have this poison in their veins, and cops happen to be stuck with the ability (or the vulnerability) that their actions express this difference in matters of life and death. The rest are lucky in that their split second racist impulses result at worst with a slur (or a broken nose).

Poison in their veins? People have the ability to not insert themselves into that position by the choices they make daily. Cops are part of the problem. But so is a narrative that every time someone gets shot it's by a dirty cop. The latest BLM protest in Minneapolis is a case in point. The perp was beating the crap out of his girlfriend, tried to stop paramedics from tending to her and reached for a cops' gun - yet let's protest the police doing their job?

If anybody should be upset with the racist narratives that conflate poverty, danger, violence and race, it's the cops themselves, since as you point out they are far more likely than anybody (except the victims) to bear lifelong trauma from these mistakes.

I doubt anyone logically looking at this would disagree, unfortunately the loudest voices will never consider this point of view.

The problem with, "That's racist!" being tossed around like candy is it has become a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation. There is racism in this country without question, but it gets buried when BLM goes off even when the facts suggest there's nothing there. You lose your audience when you make that much noise that often, and that's too bad because there is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

The other side is that BLM would get more buy-in if they came clean and admitted that there is a problem with black on black crime, etc. to a level that can't be blamed on whitey. Is society more forgiving of the repentant that blames everyone else for their sins or owns up to them?

 

[joecct]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Given how the Castros treated the populace, the optics of this vacation do not look well, Mr. Mayor.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/n...363655351.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_DCBrand

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Given how the Castros treated the populace, the optics of this vacation do not look well, Mr. Mayor.

Batista was even worse.

Rahm's in the scumbucket HOF, but except for a handful of elderly Floridians in Marco Rubio's Club for Growth sewing circle still butthurt over losing their police state-funded casinos 60 years ago, Cuba no longer works as a boogieman. Dr. Mrs. and I are planning to visit there soon.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

I don't think you're understanding what's wrong, though. The question is not "how could someone die over a toy gun" but why is there a different likelihood of getting killed by accident for a white or black child holding a toy gun. A policeman with the very best intentions is still reacting to the widespread racism that poisons our air by treating the two cases differently.

We're not saying the cop is a bad person nor even that a mistake is inexcusable (in fact, a mistake in this environment with guns flooding our society seems inevitable). We're saying many people, likely even the majority, have this poison in their veins, and cops happen to be stuck with the ability (or the vulnerability) that their actions express this difference in matters of life and death. The rest are lucky in that their split second racist impulses result at worst with a slur (or a broken nose).

If anybody should be upset with the racist narratives that conflate poverty, danger, violence and race, it's the cops themselves, since as you point out they are far more likely than anybody (except the victims) to bear lifelong trauma from these mistakes.

I have no idea what the statistics are, or if they're even kept, regarding the likelihood of a white kid with a toy gun getting shot versus a black kid. Buy I'm pretty sure you and others don't either, which is why I think it's reckless to immediately make all of these race related. A simple google search will certainly reveal any number of events like this one involving white kids with toy guns getting shot by cops. It's just that every time it happens a CVS Pharmacy isn't burned to the ground.

I happened to be in Ames, IA over the weekend and was reminded of the event from a couple of years ago where an unarmed kid, working with his dad in the family landscaping business, got into an argument with his father, jumped in a pick up truck and sped away. After leading cops on a merry chase through town, he eventually crashed his pick up truck into a cop car on the Iowa State Campus. The cops were unloading their gun into this kid before they even exited their police cars.

The kid was unarmed. He was white. He was certainly driving erratically and you can certainly argue that up until he crashed his vehicle he had control of a dangerous weapon.

No charges were brought. The video was fairly shocking. No efforts were made to "shut s h i t down" as has become the latest mantra by BLM.

I think there is a problem with cops in this country, but I think first and foremost it is a cop training problem. Right now, they act exactly the way we have trained them to act. I'm not sure what the answer is, or whether things like more K-9 units would be helpful. What I do know is that the knee jerk reaction to just make each and every one of these a "race" problem everytime the dead person is black is deflecting attention from what is the real problem.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

And I maintain the problem exists because of the death, not because of the race. I think there is a racism problem but cops are still making the same idiotic mistakes no matter the race. I dont care if the kid was a full on WASP he should not be shot dead. Deadly force should be a last resort...the right to life trumps everything including police safety which is at best a subjective standard. (anything can make a person feel unsafe or threatened)

Cops are trained and given authority over us, they need to be held to a higher standard than the average citizen.

SJ,

I agree, the problem begins with training.