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College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

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Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

Craig P. said:
and they're not consistently competitive in football and completely uncompetitive in basketball. Do we really want to turn into another Northwestern?
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Um, what? Northwestern has made more and more impressive runs at better and better bowls each year under fitzgerald. Notre Dame on the other hand has had top tier recruiting classes that can barely muster a .500 record.

In basketball Northwestern has put together a pretty impressive year as well. Beating Purdue, Illinois, and *gasp* Notre Dame. To say they're consistently good would be a mistake on my part. So I agree with you there. But Notre Dame hasn't exactly lit up the basketball world either.

And don't take this as a personal attack like so many would. This is just a look at the situation from someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

Craig P. said:
Our own network deal (plus the basketball money from the Big East) is short of what the Integer rakes in.

However, we're still not exactly hurting for revenue, and you'd have to think that we would be in a better negotiating position if Kelly can get the team back in the BCS.
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Better haul from the BCS relative to their current deal? Maybe. Better relative to what the Big Ten gets? Doubtful.

Craig P. said:
Also... I think competitively, ND is better off as an independent, with an independent identity, than becoming just another midwest university in the Integer. The biggest issue we face going forward is the tightening of non-conference schedules over the last few years, which is making it more and more difficult to put a compelling schedule together over the last month of the season in the years where we don't close at USC.
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Ah yes, the challenges of scheduling. Funny, some schools have banded together with mutual, long term scheduling arrangements. What a novel idea!

Realistically, in terms of institutional character, we don't fit in the Integer. The only school remotely like us (medium-sized and private) is Northwestern, and they're not consistently competitive in football and completely uncompetitive in basketball. Do we really want to turn into another Northwestern?
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So, institutional character is the sole determinant of athletic success? Huh?

Or, are you saying that Northwestern's success (or lack thereof) is due to the specifics of their conference membership? If only they were independent in football, they'd be racking up NCAA bids in hoops. Or something.

I get that ND fans stubbornly cling to their independence. But the attempts to rationalize it are just bizzare. Really, Craig, the logic in this paragraph makes no sense whatsoever.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

blockski said:
Ah yes, the challenges of scheduling. Funny, some schools have banded together with mutual, long term scheduling arrangements. What a novel idea!
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It's becoming more challenging. Who knows if independent status will remain tenable in the future in the face of the challenges? Basically, for the rest of your statement, duh. That's the point.

So, institutional character is the sole determinant of athletic success? Huh?
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It's certainly not, but it is something that matters to me (though, realistically, there are only a handful of schools with a similar profile to ND both academically and athletically).

Or, are you saying that Northwestern's success (or lack thereof) is due to the specifics of their conference membership? If only they were independent in football, they'd be racking up NCAA bids in hoops. Or something.
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Eh, I probably took the Northwestern thing a little too far.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

First, do we all agree money is at the heart of most of these arrangements?

If so, what would schools do if they could make more money either by getting more directly or by splitting what they already bring in with fewer schools?

What ND should do is start their own conference with similar schools that would create a national conference of highly competitive academic institutions with national sports presence that could negotiate a better TV deal and make more money than they do in their current conferences.

If ND, Duke (their AD just came from ND), BC (no stranger to jumping conferences), Stanford, pick two (Northwestern, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt) and maybe Villanova (great way to jump into D1 football a la UConn) and one other school got together they'd have a conference that had:

Some Top 40 football teams and a few that would benefit from getting out of the cellar of their current conferences.

Some great bball teams, mens and womens.

Some great soccer teams, mens and womens.

Great non-major sports like swimming, fencing, vball etc.

A consistent approach to academics vs. being in a conference with teams that have far lower academic standards.

If you want to say "there is no way XXXX would leave their conference"...re-read the first two sentences. Anything is possible if there is enough money in it.

Think Patriot League with hundreds of millions of dollars...then people could really go crazy bashing Notre Dame.
 
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Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

pirate,

Full credit for thinking outside the box, and coming up with a novel and interesting post. I've gotta believe, though, that the increased costs of the proposed arrangement would far exceed the likely benefits. Remember, for everybody except ND you'd have to consider the costs of leaving their current conferences. Also, wouldn't the new league likely evolve more in the direction of a second Ivy League, as opposed to a BCS conference?

On the ligher side, what would the new league be named? The Big Tuition? The Bookworm 8? :)
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

pgb-ohio said:
pirate,

Full credit for thinking outside the box, and coming up with a novel and interesting post. I've gotta believe, though, that the increased costs of the proposed arrangement would far exceed the likely benefits. Remember, for everybody except ND you'd have to consider the costs of leaving their current conferences. Also, wouldn't the new league likely evolve more in the direction of a second Ivy League, as opposed to a BCS conference?

On the ligher side, what would the new league be named? The Big Tuition? The Bookworm 8? :)
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I have to agree with pgb a little. I think those schools compete decently in football at least in part because of the allure of the conferences they're already in (save Notre Dame, of course). Put them all together at the kids' table, though, and I think they would fade significantly from where they are today. Oh, sure, one of them will get to be a conference champion each year, but then again, so does Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, etc (not Cornell though - they've never won an outright conference title in 60+ years in an 8-team league. Pathetic!) I bet there are a couple of those who might even struggle to reach FBS attendance requirements without their current conference big boys coming to town.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

Well I've already painted the electric football players and am starting spring practice for my new conference in a few weeks. :D


I've got to go patent the name(s):

The Student Athlete Conference - The SAC


When ND and Stanford play for the women's bball title then people will stand up and say, "hey, maybe that pirate guy was right".

And, they will be one of the best overall athletic conferences in the country.

Director's Cup
2009-10 Division I Final Fall Standings - 1/14

Institution Pts
1. Stanford 370.00
2. Virginia 337.00
3. UCLA 321.00
4. Penn State 318.50
5. North Carolina 308.00
6. Florida State 295.00
7. Villanova (Pa.) 282.00
8. Ohio State 273.00
9. Oregon 269.00
10. Florida 268.00
11. Princeton (N.J.) 230.50
12. Southern California 229.00
13. Maryland 227.00
14. Washington 223.00
15. Michigan State 219.00
16. Wake Forest 216.00
17. Oklahoma State 199.00
18. Duke (N.C.) 198.00
19. Texas 197.00
20. Minnesota 194.00
21. Wisconsin 191.50
22. Iowa State 191.00
23. Brigham Young (Utah) 190.50
24. Portland 188.00
25. Boston College 187.00
26. Notre Dame 186

Full year 08-09 standings had 6 teams in the top 50...they would be the premier conference in the country for academics and overall athletic performance.

The ACC has a lot of teams, stealing Wake and Duke would be necessary to claim the best athletic conference.


All in good fun.
 
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Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

LynahFan said:
I have to agree with pgb a little.
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It takes courage to do the right thing in the face of conflicting emotions. No one will think less of you.:D

I think those schools compete decently in football at least in part because of the allure of the conferences they're already in (save Notre Dame, of course).
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Agreed. A Big Ten example: Northwestern gets good recruits from Central Ohio from time to time, in part because of the Big Ten affiliation and the chance to play in Ohio Stadium during their college careers.

Put them all together at the kids' table, though, and I think they would fade significantly from where they are today. Oh, sure, one of them will get to be a conference champion each year, but then again, so does Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, etc (not Cornell though - they've never won an outright conference title in 60+ years in an 8-team league. Pathetic!) I bet there are a couple of those who might even struggle to reach FBS attendance requirements without their current conference big boys coming to town.
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Again, agreed. Back to NU/OSU: I'm sure the Wildcat faithful gets annoyed when Buckeye fans take over their stadium every other year. But I'm equally sure that the staff members counting the gate receipts don't mind a bit. I don't have numbers in front of me, but teams like WI, IA, MI and others also bring large contingents to Evanston.

Teams like Villanova and Wake aren't going to travel nearly as well. If NU left the BT to join the SAC, there would be a major box office hit.

The SAC would still be a cool league. And the Director's Cup standings show that the schools pirate mentions do indeed have deep, well-rounded programs. But also remember that at schools like Stanford, every one of the those quality non-revenue teams would have to fly to every single conference away game. The airlines would be very pleased. The ADs and others who have to work on department budgets, not so much.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

bigmrg74 said:
SAC is already taken.
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Do you know how many lawyers went to my schools? We'll sue 'em and every judge that hears the case will be from my new conference. They can change their name and we'll let them off with not paying any damages...they can change their name to Southern University Conference (The SUC).

Again, all in good fun, Duke wasn't a national brand until they hit the TV waves every weekend ... for many they were the anti-UNLV...and not because of skin color but because they appeared to value more than just basketball stats.

Let's say somebody did what I suggested...I think Wake and NU would have no problem recruiting if they would be on TV many more times than now and would 'travel' better as people became fans from the exposure. A kid might want to play in Columbus 2x in 4 years but I submit he'd rather be on national TV 6 times a year.

That is the ND model, most have never been there but grew up watching them on sunday highlights. ND sells out games all over the country against some poor opponents because folks want to see them play...my whole conference is based on TV revenue controlling exposure, recruiting etc. It is half-cynical, half-realistic.

If Bill Gates and Boone Pickens wanted to start a conference from scratch, they could have 5 top 20 teams in 10 years just by having the money to do it.

Look at Danica and Nascar? If more people would watch Oprah race against JLo then they'd both be driving too...to quote the famous philosopher, Cyndi Lauper, Money Changes Everything.
 
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Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

pirate said:
Look at Danica and Nascar? If more people would watch Oprah race against JLo then they'd both be driving too...to quote the famous philosopher, Cyndi Lauper, Money Changes Everything.
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Of course, you're right about that. But where is this private school conference of yours going to get money when their attendance and shares of TV revenue will be much smaller than it is now?

You really think any network would drop serious money to broadcast Villanova vs. Duke football? Or Notre Dame/Stanford basketball? Sure, I cherry picked some bad matchups that wouldn't make it to prime time, but there are a lot more of those than there are Duke/Villanova basketball games in your lineup. The only reason Duke football gets any TV money at all is because they play in a conference with FSU, Ga Tech, Va Tech, and Miami. There's no way the cream of your football crop (Notre Dame and BC) will bring in as much as the cream of the ACC.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

LynahFan said:
Of course, you're right about that. But where is this private school conference of yours going to get money when their attendance and shares of TV revenue will be much smaller than it is now?

You really think any network would drop serious money to broadcast Villanova vs. Duke football? Or Notre Dame/Stanford basketball? Sure, I cherry picked some bad matchups that wouldn't make it to prime time, but there are a lot more of those than there are Duke/Villanova basketball games in your lineup. The only reason Duke football gets any TV money at all is because they play in a conference with FSU, Ga Tech, Va Tech, and Miami. There's no way the cream of your football crop (Notre Dame and BC) will bring in as much as the cream of the ACC.
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I think we're clear that I'm not saying this would absolutely work...but who thought you'd get people to watch amateur singers, women's softball, tuesday night colelge football or little league baseball on TV?

It would come down to the TV deal for the conference...There would be some plum programs and teams that would be packaged together to entice a better deal from the network. What would a network pay to have exclusive rights to ND, Stanford, Duke etc. for the next 10 years?

Then, the value of NU, Wake etc. isn't where they are now, it is where they will be if those schools are on TV consistently. For the first X years revenue is shared equally, the big schools take that deal for the long-term positioning and get paid back from future revenue. BCS revenue is split amongst 8 schools, not 12, they get 6-7 of their bball teams in the tourney every year and don't have to split that amongst 12 teams either.

Granted, Duke/VU football isn't a great matchup today. My pitch is that it will be if there is enough money behind it - kids will go to schools to be on TV, facilities improve etc. Would you have bought futures in Cincinnatti football 10 year ago? 6 years ago?

Has BC always been a top 25 football team? If not, when did they become nationally known? Why did that happen? Did that change create any changes in applications to the school, attendance at football games, donations, increases in merchandise sales? Did any other sports at that school also benefit from the increase in national exposure? That would be my pitch to the schools and network...broadcast it and the money will come. I'll have kids in North Dakota wearing Villanova Football jerseys in 2025.:D

That is my model...that TV is willing to televise anything from 'Millionaire, to You're Fired, to poker, to people eating bugs'...if you give them the reason to force your product onto the screen (leverage through the big name schools) it will have an impact...all we need for this conference to work is an aggressive TV deal ... I could make Coastal Carolina the last school and it would still work.

BUT, how about Cal instead? I think they'd make a great addition - west coast - 2 schools, midwest 2 schools, east and southeast 4 schools.

I think I could get my own network off the ground in less than 10 years with these schools or convince somebody to convert to the SAC network.

you can be deputy commissioner.:)
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

I hear what you're saying, but unfortunately I can't see any networks (or cable families of channels) being patient enough to take on a project like that - growing a conference from the ground up. Next quarter's earnings report is never more than 3 months away.

The problem is that it's a lot cheaper to broadcast amateur singers and people eating bugs than it is to put sports on the air, especially a far-flung conference like you're talking about. Sure, Idol has high production values now and they broadcast auditions from all over the country, but they didn't start off that way - they grew into being able to do that after the money was already rolling in. It's tough to start out small when broadcasting sports - a skeleton crew at a small studio in Burbank just won't cut it!

The deal doesn't work without Notre Dame football, obviously, and you'll never get them to start sharing their revenue unless each share is greater than Notre Dame's current take, so that's a very large amount of money right up front.

I think you're onto something with founding your own network, though. When do I start? :)
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

LynahFan said:
I hear what you're saying, but unfortunately I can't see any networks (or cable families of channels) being patient enough to take on a project like that - growing a conference from the ground up. Next quarter's earnings report is never more than 3 months away.

The problem is that it's a lot cheaper to broadcast amateur singers and people eating bugs than it is to put sports on the air, especially a far-flung conference like you're talking about. Sure, Idol has high production values now and they broadcast auditions from all over the country, but they didn't start off that way - they grew into being able to do that after the money was already rolling in. It's tough to start out small when broadcasting sports - a skeleton crew at a small studio in Burbank just won't cut it!

The deal doesn't work without Notre Dame football, obviously, and you'll never get them to start sharing their revenue unless each share is greater than Notre Dame's current take, so that's a very large amount of money right up front.

I think you're onto something with founding your own network, though. When do I start? :)
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I don't disagree with any of the comments from you or pgb...I 'think' it could work but realize I'm making plenty of assumptions for which I have very little support...but when it happens I'm sending you guys an ITYS card!!:D
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

BoomGoestheDynamite said:
Solid blog post on Big Ten expansion, but its long:

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2...-expansion-index-a-different-shade-of-orange/
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I generally don't care about the Big 10 much, besides not wanting Notre Dame in the conference due to the hockey conference that will not be named implications. But I was bored at work today, and read through that blog. It was very well thought out and made alot of sense. I especially like how he detailed Texas's situation and what would happen if Missouri left for the B10 and Colorado to the PAC10.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

BoomGoestheDynamite said:
Solid blog post on Big Ten expansion, but its long:

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2...-expansion-index-a-different-shade-of-orange/
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I think he's wrong when he gives Nebraska the 25 points for Academics: when it comes down to it, I think that's the major knock against NU to the Big Televen, even moreso than the lack of a major media market. He admits it's a close call on that one, and one he's giving the benefit of the doubt to Nebraska on. Thinking like a University President, though, that's one thing on which you don't give the benefit of the doubt.Take those 25 points away, and Nebraska's back in the pretenders pile rather than the contenders.
 
Re: College Football 2009: Where Championships are won by a majority vote

unofan said:
I think he's wrong when he gives Nebraska the 25 points for Academics
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The N is for knowledge.

Understood that the Big 10 would love Nebraska, but in all seriousness and not meaning a flame, why would Nebraska be interested in the Big Ten? It's like hypothesizing Alabama would leave the SEC.
 
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