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Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
- Thread starter sshablak
- Start date
TheGreenCoat
Registered User
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
I will say this...I think we did a good job tightening up defensively during the last c. half of the season. SOG were down generally and egregious plays in our defensive end were few...I just do't think that at least on paper we have the necessary speed and skill set offensively to at least break out into the #5 through #8 placings in the standings. And I agree, I expected a little more from our freshman forwards this year. Next year Kulevich will be a huge loss and Corkey was a mainstay as well...Quillan and Cosgrove should help, especially in puck movement, but effective transition requires both skilled D-men and forwards with both some speed and skill. And if you look at next year's incoming forwards I don't see talent jumping off the page at me; I really hope I'm dead wrong. For Christ's Sake, we averaged 2 goals/game in the ECAC this year (not 2 1/2 mind you) and how do you win 50% of your games averaging less than 2.5 goals/game. Our goaltending this year was pretty solid (B to B+), but we all saw the same games...bad passes, passes off sticks, missed breakaways, etc. The Red Wings are toast and The Gate is done. Harder may be developing into a good recruiter - he's only been at it for a year or two - but time is passing and the competition only gets tougher. Virtually all our wins were one or two goal margins. Yes, we lost some close ones as well, but our record in 3+ goal margins was horrible. Our record against the top five teams in the league was 0-8-2. Historically over the past decade we have very few "high quality" wins EXCEPT during the 2013-14 season. Our two out-of-conference wins (2-7-3 prior to the playoffs) were against a bad Maine team and Arizona State. No question in my mind...more and more I miss the Andrew Dickson/Stan Moore recruiting years...
I will say this...I think we did a good job tightening up defensively during the last c. half of the season. SOG were down generally and egregious plays in our defensive end were few...I just do't think that at least on paper we have the necessary speed and skill set offensively to at least break out into the #5 through #8 placings in the standings. And I agree, I expected a little more from our freshman forwards this year. Next year Kulevich will be a huge loss and Corkey was a mainstay as well...Quillan and Cosgrove should help, especially in puck movement, but effective transition requires both skilled D-men and forwards with both some speed and skill. And if you look at next year's incoming forwards I don't see talent jumping off the page at me; I really hope I'm dead wrong. For Christ's Sake, we averaged 2 goals/game in the ECAC this year (not 2 1/2 mind you) and how do you win 50% of your games averaging less than 2.5 goals/game. Our goaltending this year was pretty solid (B to B+), but we all saw the same games...bad passes, passes off sticks, missed breakaways, etc. The Red Wings are toast and The Gate is done. Harder may be developing into a good recruiter - he's only been at it for a year or two - but time is passing and the competition only gets tougher. Virtually all our wins were one or two goal margins. Yes, we lost some close ones as well, but our record in 3+ goal margins was horrible. Our record against the top five teams in the league was 0-8-2. Historically over the past decade we have very few "high quality" wins EXCEPT during the 2013-14 season. Our two out-of-conference wins (2-7-3 prior to the playoffs) were against a bad Maine team and Arizona State. No question in my mind...more and more I miss the Andrew Dickson/Stan Moore recruiting years...
ColSkate65
Signer of '65 Arena first beam.
techtodenver
Registered User
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
Develop relationships on the recruiting trail/hire someone who already has relationships on the trail, you have to get players to say yes to a visit and from there you're at least in the convo.
tmi
Develop relationships on the recruiting trail/hire someone who already has relationships on the trail, you have to get players to say yes to a visit and from there you're at least in the convo.
TheGreenCoat
Registered User
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
I think Marmot in particular will love this statistic...I've analyzed the KRACH rankings since 2006-2007 (essentially when I started to become concerned about the direction of the program and after several very successful years for The Gate)...I believe KRACH is sufficiently close to the so-called "Pairwise" system to be an accurate tool for top-to-bottom rankings of all 60 DI hockey programs (program participation has ranged from 59 to 58 to 59 and now 60 over this time period)...over the last two years Colgate is 0-23-2 against top 20 KRACH teams (and 1-32-3 over three years - surprisingly so since it ultimately cost us an NCAA bid in 2015)...now we're talking NOT top 5, nor top 10, but top 20 - fully 1/3 of teams we compete against...this is a very disturbing and frankly embarrassing statistic...almost impossible to achieve...since the 2006-07 season our record is a subpar 22-87-15...mind you, we went 7-7-3 against top 20 competition in 2013-14 (hence the #12 ranking in the KRACH that year)...without this very good performance, 10 of the last 11 years has seen our record vis-a-vis the top 20 is 15 WINS, 80 LOSSES AND 14 TIES...JUDGE FOR YOURSELF...
I think Marmot in particular will love this statistic...I've analyzed the KRACH rankings since 2006-2007 (essentially when I started to become concerned about the direction of the program and after several very successful years for The Gate)...I believe KRACH is sufficiently close to the so-called "Pairwise" system to be an accurate tool for top-to-bottom rankings of all 60 DI hockey programs (program participation has ranged from 59 to 58 to 59 and now 60 over this time period)...over the last two years Colgate is 0-23-2 against top 20 KRACH teams (and 1-32-3 over three years - surprisingly so since it ultimately cost us an NCAA bid in 2015)...now we're talking NOT top 5, nor top 10, but top 20 - fully 1/3 of teams we compete against...this is a very disturbing and frankly embarrassing statistic...almost impossible to achieve...since the 2006-07 season our record is a subpar 22-87-15...mind you, we went 7-7-3 against top 20 competition in 2013-14 (hence the #12 ranking in the KRACH that year)...without this very good performance, 10 of the last 11 years has seen our record vis-a-vis the top 20 is 15 WINS, 80 LOSSES AND 14 TIES...JUDGE FOR YOURSELF...
TheGreenCoat
Registered User
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
these #s are important...10 of last 11 years is 15-80-12 (not 14 ties)...
these #s are important...10 of last 11 years is 15-80-12 (not 14 ties)...
ColSkate65
Signer of '65 Arena first beam.
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
P'ton giving Union a fight, 3-3 going to OT in Game 2. P'ton is not the same team we knew from years past...hummm
P'ton giving Union a fight, 3-3 going to OT in Game 2. P'ton is not the same team we knew from years past...hummm
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
This Date in Colgate Hockey History
6 years ago, it looked like our season was going to end, until this happened:
http://ecachockey.com/men/video/2010-11/20111203_Union_Colgate_Game2Qtrs-desktop.flv
This Date in Colgate Hockey History
6 years ago, it looked like our season was going to end, until this happened:
http://ecachockey.com/men/video/2010-11/20111203_Union_Colgate_Game2Qtrs-desktop.flv
TheGreenCoat
Registered User
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
please folks...want some feedback on my recent statistic regarding Gate hockey's record against top 20 KRACH teams over the last 2 years, 3 years whatever...I WANT SOME GOOD NEWS (we signed a young man last week to a letter of commitment for the 2018-19 season who looks quite intriguing) and, in a desperate attempt to be positive, I am not overly impressed with RPI's incoming freshman...but 1-32-3 against top 20 teams over the past three years is, even for this contributor who does see a lots of turds in the punch bowl, simply unacceptable...DV can coach kids; I don't really think there's any question about this. Are we going to really recruit? Really recruit? It undoubtedly involves a commitment (to be repetitive) from our new president on down, to Chun, to a Board (even a feckless Board), to even the Silver Puck Council (good luck with that)...as we know, Union was at a crossroads and dealt with it (successfully)...St. Lawrence went through the same thing in the early 1980s...it's tougher for us...we're DI in a lot of spots, we're subject to an Academic Index, yes, but I expect MORE of my university...am I wrong???
please folks...want some feedback on my recent statistic regarding Gate hockey's record against top 20 KRACH teams over the last 2 years, 3 years whatever...I WANT SOME GOOD NEWS (we signed a young man last week to a letter of commitment for the 2018-19 season who looks quite intriguing) and, in a desperate attempt to be positive, I am not overly impressed with RPI's incoming freshman...but 1-32-3 against top 20 teams over the past three years is, even for this contributor who does see a lots of turds in the punch bowl, simply unacceptable...DV can coach kids; I don't really think there's any question about this. Are we going to really recruit? Really recruit? It undoubtedly involves a commitment (to be repetitive) from our new president on down, to Chun, to a Board (even a feckless Board), to even the Silver Puck Council (good luck with that)...as we know, Union was at a crossroads and dealt with it (successfully)...St. Lawrence went through the same thing in the early 1980s...it's tougher for us...we're DI in a lot of spots, we're subject to an Academic Index, yes, but I expect MORE of my university...am I wrong???
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
Are you saying that you want feedback, but only want it to be positive?! It pains me to say it, but DV should probably go, and that applies to his staff, too. With a new rink that he helped cultivate, it will never happen.
In relation to the ECAC, Colgate has always felt like an anomaly to me.
Ivies - Princeton, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, Cornell
D-III - Clarkson, Union, SLU, RPI: hockey is the crowned jewel.
Other - Quinnipiac, Colgate
I would say Quinnipiac and Colgate are more dissimilar than similar. Quinnipiac may be D-I, but it feels more like RPI. Colgate feels like it has an identity crisis and it has difficulty selling its unique, yet special, brand. That seems impossible to fathom because Colgate has so many attributes. I don't see a positive change or reason for optimism in our program. It would not surprise me to see more early defections in the future like Wagner and Johnson (Colton Point) who saw the writing on the wall.
Are you saying that you want feedback, but only want it to be positive?! It pains me to say it, but DV should probably go, and that applies to his staff, too. With a new rink that he helped cultivate, it will never happen.
In relation to the ECAC, Colgate has always felt like an anomaly to me.
Ivies - Princeton, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, Cornell
D-III - Clarkson, Union, SLU, RPI: hockey is the crowned jewel.
Other - Quinnipiac, Colgate
I would say Quinnipiac and Colgate are more dissimilar than similar. Quinnipiac may be D-I, but it feels more like RPI. Colgate feels like it has an identity crisis and it has difficulty selling its unique, yet special, brand. That seems impossible to fathom because Colgate has so many attributes. I don't see a positive change or reason for optimism in our program. It would not surprise me to see more early defections in the future like Wagner and Johnson (Colton Point) who saw the writing on the wall.
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
Here is what I've compiled for next season's schedule:
<pre>
Nov. 3 @Princeton
Nov. 4 @Quinnipiac
Nov. 10 Harvard
Nov. 11 Dartmouth
Nov. 17 Clarkson
Nov. 18 St. Lawrence
Jan. 5 Quinnipiac
Jan. 6 Princeton
Jan. 12 @Brown
Jan. 13 @Yale
Jan. 26 @Dartmouth
Jan. 27 @Harvard
Feb. 2 RPI
Feb. 3 Union
Feb. 9 @St. Lawrence
Feb. 10 @Clarkson
Feb. 16 Yale
Feb. 17 Brown
Feb. 23 @Union
Feb. 24 @RPI
</pre>
Cornell games TBD. While we have an open weekend Jan. 19-20, both schools are still "on Winter Break" during that time period. Dec. 1-2 is another option for playing Cornell home-and-home. Outside of that weekend, we may get stuck playing Tuesday night games with the Big Red again
Confirmed OOC opponents:
-Arizona State (home x2)
-Merrimack (home x2)
-@Army (single game)
-@UConn (single game)
We will also play in a holiday tournament (2 games), and the remaining 4 OOC games will be against Atlantic Hockey and Hockey East opponents.
Here is what I've compiled for next season's schedule:
<pre>
Nov. 3 @Princeton
Nov. 4 @Quinnipiac
Nov. 10 Harvard
Nov. 11 Dartmouth
Nov. 17 Clarkson
Nov. 18 St. Lawrence
Jan. 5 Quinnipiac
Jan. 6 Princeton
Jan. 12 @Brown
Jan. 13 @Yale
Jan. 26 @Dartmouth
Jan. 27 @Harvard
Feb. 2 RPI
Feb. 3 Union
Feb. 9 @St. Lawrence
Feb. 10 @Clarkson
Feb. 16 Yale
Feb. 17 Brown
Feb. 23 @Union
Feb. 24 @RPI
</pre>
Cornell games TBD. While we have an open weekend Jan. 19-20, both schools are still "on Winter Break" during that time period. Dec. 1-2 is another option for playing Cornell home-and-home. Outside of that weekend, we may get stuck playing Tuesday night games with the Big Red again
Confirmed OOC opponents:
-Arizona State (home x2)
-Merrimack (home x2)
-@Army (single game)
-@UConn (single game)
We will also play in a holiday tournament (2 games), and the remaining 4 OOC games will be against Atlantic Hockey and Hockey East opponents.
TheGreenCoat
Registered User
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
TchrBill...totally agree with your analysis of the 12 ECAC teams...Colgate is an anomaly, to be sure...competitive academically with the Ivies but not officially "Ivy" and only 1/2 the size of the average Ivy school...several DIII schools athletically in all but hockey with resources allocated accordingly, and, finally, Q-Pac, also an outlier with triple the enrollment, a very supportive administration and less onerous academic standards. Yet we build a $38M facility which says to me that, at least in one respect, we ARE saying that college hockey is a high priority endeavor in Hamilton, NY. We have no baseball team, no wrestling team, a shell of a men's swimming program, a basketball program that will struggle to reach .500 every year adn a lacrosse team that really hasn't brought in much talent since Coach Nagle left for Stony Brook. What is also interesting is that the last 11 years of subpar performance coincides with the switch from need-based to grant-in-aid scholarships. A coincidence or not? Of course we never have gone to 18 scholarships; we were apparently satisfied with 16 (and now, finally, 17) athletic scholarships. It is my hope that everyone who both advocated the new rink and who benefits from the new rink feels some real pressure to truly make it a real "value add" to the school and the program. Impatience is difficult to overcome, but I will say that we are now proximate to fifty games below .500 since the 2006-07 season. Losing close games against top 20 teams by a goal shouldn't cut it anymore. Losing for Pecknold, Allain, Bennett is losing; expectations are simply higher. I'm just getting tired by the "happy talk", the myriad number of excuses, and what seems like a comfort with mediocrity...
TchrBill...totally agree with your analysis of the 12 ECAC teams...Colgate is an anomaly, to be sure...competitive academically with the Ivies but not officially "Ivy" and only 1/2 the size of the average Ivy school...several DIII schools athletically in all but hockey with resources allocated accordingly, and, finally, Q-Pac, also an outlier with triple the enrollment, a very supportive administration and less onerous academic standards. Yet we build a $38M facility which says to me that, at least in one respect, we ARE saying that college hockey is a high priority endeavor in Hamilton, NY. We have no baseball team, no wrestling team, a shell of a men's swimming program, a basketball program that will struggle to reach .500 every year adn a lacrosse team that really hasn't brought in much talent since Coach Nagle left for Stony Brook. What is also interesting is that the last 11 years of subpar performance coincides with the switch from need-based to grant-in-aid scholarships. A coincidence or not? Of course we never have gone to 18 scholarships; we were apparently satisfied with 16 (and now, finally, 17) athletic scholarships. It is my hope that everyone who both advocated the new rink and who benefits from the new rink feels some real pressure to truly make it a real "value add" to the school and the program. Impatience is difficult to overcome, but I will say that we are now proximate to fifty games below .500 since the 2006-07 season. Losing close games against top 20 teams by a goal shouldn't cut it anymore. Losing for Pecknold, Allain, Bennett is losing; expectations are simply higher. I'm just getting tired by the "happy talk", the myriad number of excuses, and what seems like a comfort with mediocrity...
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
GreenCoat, on your point of a few days ago I think we are certainly not wrong to have higher expectations than the reality we have seen over the past decade plus. I didn't realize just how poorly we have fared against upper echelon opponents. I suppose that would explain how even when we have a good record we rarely make the NCAAs and never win a Whitelaw or an NCAA tourney game.
Unfortunately, the harsh truth of the numbers changes my outlook from having very little hope to having almost no hope.
GreenCoat, on your point of a few days ago I think we are certainly not wrong to have higher expectations than the reality we have seen over the past decade plus. I didn't realize just how poorly we have fared against upper echelon opponents. I suppose that would explain how even when we have a good record we rarely make the NCAAs and never win a Whitelaw or an NCAA tourney game.
Unfortunately, the harsh truth of the numbers changes my outlook from having very little hope to having almost no hope.
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
And I also agree with the point that the effort and amount of funds raised to build the new rink certainly point in the direction that the school takes having a competitive hockey program seriously.
But that's not enough. At a certain point in time you have to take an unflinching look at the coaching staff and make an honest determination whether or not they are the ones to lead the program to success.
And I also agree with the point that the effort and amount of funds raised to build the new rink certainly point in the direction that the school takes having a competitive hockey program seriously.
But that's not enough. At a certain point in time you have to take an unflinching look at the coaching staff and make an honest determination whether or not they are the ones to lead the program to success.
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
That said, with respect to Teacher Bill's comment about Wagner and Johnston leaving early because they were concerned about the program, I'm not so sure.
Wagner was coming off a 57 point season as a sophomore. The team was above .500, and we had an excellent recruiting class coming in. The prospects for the future at that time looked good. So, it's hard to say with certainty why he turned pro (thought he'd progressed enough at the collegiate level and was ready? Needed [or wanted] the money?) but I don't think it's because he thought the program was headed in the wrong direction.
As for Johnston, he had a great tryout camp with the Canadiens after his junior year and they offered him a deal. Unlike Wagner who was a draft pick, Johnston's future after Colgate was unclear. So, I can definitely understand why he turned pro. And we were returning a stacked team for what would have been his senior year, a twenty plus win team for the two preceding seasons. So, again I don't think he turned pro for fear the program was cratering.
However, notwithstanding those two particular situations, I think the biggest problem with the program is getting quality players in the first place. In fact, this is the very crux of the problem.
So, what is the solution?
That said, with respect to Teacher Bill's comment about Wagner and Johnston leaving early because they were concerned about the program, I'm not so sure.
Wagner was coming off a 57 point season as a sophomore. The team was above .500, and we had an excellent recruiting class coming in. The prospects for the future at that time looked good. So, it's hard to say with certainty why he turned pro (thought he'd progressed enough at the collegiate level and was ready? Needed [or wanted] the money?) but I don't think it's because he thought the program was headed in the wrong direction.
As for Johnston, he had a great tryout camp with the Canadiens after his junior year and they offered him a deal. Unlike Wagner who was a draft pick, Johnston's future after Colgate was unclear. So, I can definitely understand why he turned pro. And we were returning a stacked team for what would have been his senior year, a twenty plus win team for the two preceding seasons. So, again I don't think he turned pro for fear the program was cratering.
However, notwithstanding those two particular situations, I think the biggest problem with the program is getting quality players in the first place. In fact, this is the very crux of the problem.
So, what is the solution?
Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning
In a bit of more positive news, I'm starting to re-evaluate my opinion on Nick Austin. I think he was originally listed as a forward, but he's playing defense in the USHL which makes his 13 point total for the year look a bit better.
But here's what made me even more optimistic about him: he was the 20th overall pick in the USHL draft this year. And as the USHL is the best feeder of future NCAA players I'm taking comfort in the fact he was highly regarded by that league.
With him, Quillan and Cosgrove we have three solid looking d-man recruits. About that scoring though . . .
In a bit of more positive news, I'm starting to re-evaluate my opinion on Nick Austin. I think he was originally listed as a forward, but he's playing defense in the USHL which makes his 13 point total for the year look a bit better.
But here's what made me even more optimistic about him: he was the 20th overall pick in the USHL draft this year. And as the USHL is the best feeder of future NCAA players I'm taking comfort in the fact he was highly regarded by that league.
With him, Quillan and Cosgrove we have three solid looking d-man recruits. About that scoring though . . .