What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

climate change times are a changin'

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: climate change times are a changin'

I think you are putting the cart before the horse, at least for people with honestly held religious beliefs. Most folks I know of come to their religious beliefs sincerely, not because they are looking for support for some political agenda/position. Of course there are people who don't really believe, but use sacred scriptures to merely further their political or other agendas.


Bob, you are entirely overlooking the way humans rationalize to deal with cognitive dissonance. Just because a belief is honestly held does not mean it is not contrary to the one we would hold but for our desire to avoid cognitive dissonance.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

Bob, you are entirely overlooking the way humans rationalize to deal with cognitive dissonance. Just because a belief is honestly held does not mean it is not contrary to the one we would hold but for our desire to avoid cognitive dissonance.
Sorry, I really don't get what you are trying to say here. If it's that everyone rationalizes to one extent or another, that's of course true, but that doesn't change the point I'm making.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

Sorry, I really don't get what you are trying to say here. If it's that everyone rationalizes to one extent or another, that's of course true, but that doesn't change the point I'm making.

The point is that five different people could look at the same given bible verse and come up with five different interpretations.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

The point is that five different people could look at the same given bible verse and come up with five different interpretations.

Four of those people won't be true Christians.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

Bob, you are entirely overlooking the way humans rationalize to deal with cognitive dissonance. Just because a belief is honestly held does not mean it is not contrary to the one we would hold but for our desire to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Sorry, I really don't get what you are trying to say here. If it's that everyone rationalizes to one extent or another, that's of course true, but that doesn't change the point I'm making.

The point is that five different people could look at the same given bible verse and come up with five different interpretations.

Four of those people won't be true Christians.

Pretty good illustrations of how dissonance theory works, St. Clown's comment particularly, though I understand he was making a joke about something else. Dissonance theory is certainly not news, but the web, for all its benefits, allows us all to find a world that just reinforces what we already believe. We all rationalize to avoid the effect of cognitive dissonance, but I'm not sure we understand how well studied this dynamic is or how far reaching its effects are. I don't understand a dam thing about it, of course, but that doesn't keep me from yapping on about it.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

I don't understand a dam thing about it, of course, but that doesn't keep me from yapping on about it.

I welcome you to the internet. You will be a tremendous asset. :)

But seriously, you are right. Cognitive dissonance runs the world.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

I think Kepler's point is that even sincere believers with different political beliefs will somehow each find support for their political positions from the same Book, and quite often from the same chapter and verse.

That is what I meant, yes.

Beliefs are feelings, not intellectual conceptions, and feelings are by their very nature sincere. Because they are determined by biographical events, the experience of belief is completely sincere. In fact, we define sincerity as the correspondence between portrayal and belief.
 
Last edited:
Re: climate change times are a changin'

Pretty good illustrations of how dissonance theory works, St. Clown's comment particularly, though I understand he was making a joke about something else. Dissonance theory is certainly not news, but the web, for all its benefits, allows us all to find a world that just reinforces what we already believe. We all rationalize to avoid the effect of cognitive dissonance, but I'm not sure we understand how well studied this dynamic is or how far reaching its effects are. I don't understand a dam thing about it, of course, but that doesn't keep me from yapping on about it.
Please don't every assume that unofan grasps any point I make. The extent to which he follows me around in these threads, despite being on my ignore list for a good while now, is a little creepy.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but it's not somehow limited to religious people or even more pronounced in them than in anyone else. It's part of the landscape for all of us.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

That is what I meant, yes.

Beliefs are feelings, not intellectual conceptions, and feelings are by their very nature sincere. Because they are determined by biographical events, the experience of belief is completely sincere. In fact, we define sincerity as the correspondence between portrayal and belief.
That's way too simplistic. Beliefs are informed by many things, including feelings, experiences, study and analysis, and much more.

Feelings are determined by biological events? They are influenced by biological events (not sure what a biological event specifically is in comparison to a plain old event), but not determined by them. There is freedom of thought, people do change their minds (sometimes just with further consideration of a matter, not because a further event of some sort determined that they would), etc. This still doesn't fit into nice tidy conceptual boxes.
 
Re: climate change times are a changin'

That's way too simplistic. Beliefs are informed by many things, including feelings, experiences, study and analysis, and much more.

Feelings are determined by biological events? They are influenced by biological events (not sure what a biological event specifically is in comparison to a plain old event), but not determined by them. There is freedom of thought, people do change their minds (sometimes just with further consideration of a matter, not because a further event of some sort determined that they would), etc. This still doesn't fit into nice tidy conceptual boxes.

I had at first written "dominated by" rather than "determined by," but I wanted it a little stronger. I agree, that's too far, your language is better. I'll go with "overwhelmed by."

By "biological event" I meant to include not just events like who your best friend was and what he believed but also who your father was and what he taught you, what the local community was and what their norms were, etc. How for example faith is passed between generations. That indicates faith is a social construct, not a rational choice, but it's too restrictive to say "a man learns his faith from his father" since other events matter -- who was his favorite teacher, or probably most importantly of all how was deviation from a family faith dealt with in his locality.

Let me try again.

Of course there is always variation and we are always talking in terms of probabilities and tendencies rather than any sort of iron determinism.

However, our (I hate this word but I'm going to use it just this once because it's the exactly correct word) phenomenological (gak, I really wish there was a better word, believe me; use "subjective" if you want -- it's not quite right but it's about 90% there) experience of the relationship between emotions and ideas is sometimes wrong. We think we are changing our views based on data and that our beliefs are thus rational. We think when we read Aquinas and he makes a good point that is contrary to our prejudices we adjust our belief. This is true when we are thinking about what to have for dinner or whether to pass the slowpoke in front of us. But when the subject matter is more emotional and is deeply rooted in our sense of self, the actual causation is reversed: we see the data we need to to hold onto our beliefs. The Aquinas statement isn't a "good" point in the first place if it doesn't support our beliefs. Not our ideas -- ideas are easy to change -- but our serious bedrock formative beliefs. Those aren't going anywhere no matter what tries to dislodge them.

There are several formal cognitive biases where this has been experimentally proven (and they're fascinating), but the bottom line is: we don't choose what we believe, our beliefs choose us. We do get to choose the data we encounter and interpret and evaluate, so we shape the empirical strata that is supposed to moderate our beliefs, and we shape it unconsciously to eliminate dissonance. We're stuck, literally -- we can't escape a belief, unless we're confronted with a situation in which the beliefs themselves somehow come into conflict and one must go down. Nussbaum in The Fragility of Goodness does a good job of convincing me that even then we don't really stop believing in one of the contradictory beliefs -- we just hold both in our minds and to hell with consistency. Antigone never rejects either of her fundamental beliefs, she just gotta do what she's gotta do, knowing (and accepting) exactly what that means for her. That's why she's tragic and not just inconvenienced.

Now I'm stopping because I just had the urge to also use the word "overdetermined," and there's no way I'm using both those horrible jargon terms in one post.
 
Last edited:
Re: climate change times are a changin'

Getting back to the climate....

There is a recent news report of a mysterious, massive hole in Sibera that might be tied to a thaw in the permafrost. it's too soon to tell yet as the hole was just discovered, and the scientific investigation team is still en route to the remote location.

A huge, mysterious crater spotted in remote Siberia has scientists scrambling for answers.

The seemingly bottomless pit was spotted by an oil-and-gas industry helicopter flying over northern Siberia.

“We can definitely say that it is not a meteorite,” a spokesman for Russia’s Emergencies Ministry said.

Russian scientist Anna Kurchatova, from the Sub-Arctic Scientific Research Center, believes the cause is something more logical, such as global warming.

Siberia’s frozen soil — known as permafrost — contains millions of tons of methane gas. As the surface slowly warms, this gas begins to be released — and pools into highly volatile pockets.

A mixture of water, salt and gas may have ignited an underground explosion. Another possibility is that the gas pocket may simply have built up enough pressure to pop like a Champagne cork, she said.



as a totally unrelated aside, it's cute that the newspaper's style editor capitalizes "Champagne", eh?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top