Christ is Risen!

[leswp1]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The cartoon is so true. People lose the message in being obsessed with the minutia and forgetting that Jesus was a rebel and ticked off the religious 'leaders' of the time. Feed the hungry, poor and widow is mentioned over 200 times. Homosexuality 8. Outrage regarding 'gay people'. Where is the righeous outrage about the starving poor? Instead they must be lazy. Makes me crazy. Someone posted this on FB a bit ago. It says what needs to be said.

http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html
and a response
http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-brave-response-to-im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Now I've heard everything - Christianity drove the enlightenment. Black is white. Up is down.

Unless, by some chance that you mean that the church tried to "drive" all the enlightened individuals out of society and thereby accidentally fanned the flames brighter than they otherwise would have been. Any relationship the church had with enlightenment was strictly a case of keeping their enemies closer.

What happened to the point of your last post "that we don't know what would have happened if Christianity had not been the dominant religion" (which was addressed). Not to mention the previous post that you successfully raised your own issue of origination and then refuted it.

I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The cartoon is so true. People lose the message in being obsessed with the minutia and forgetting that Jesus was a rebel and ticked off the religious 'leaders' of the time. Feed the hungry, poor and widow is mentioned over 200 times. Homosexuality 8. Outrage regarding 'gay people'. Where is the righeous outrage about the starving poor? Instead they must be lazy. Makes me crazy. Someone posted this on FB a bit ago. It says what needs to be said.

http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html
and a response
http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-brave-response-to-im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

True that the world would be better off if people (and not just Christians, but all of us) didn't scream at each other about issues, including on internet message boards, but instead got out there and did good to one another. That said, the Bible says what it says about all sorts of issues. Some things it says are in vogue right now, some not.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Foxton reviles all religion not just Christianity.

Most of us "Non-Believers" don't much care as long as you keep your religion away from us. Problem is that doesnt happen often enough. I am happy you have your beliefs and that they help you live the life you want to lead but the second you preach to me or act even the slightest bit in judgement of me (which happens more often than you would think even with just the "semi-faithful") then guess what I am going to retort. This goes for any religion, including the faith I was raised Judaism. (and vice versa...I dont preach non-belief to people and scoff at the people who do) No matter what you think, you are not better than me and especially not because you memorized some passage from a book.

Live and let live...you have your way I have mine. In the end that is all that matters

I may regret wading into this discussion but thought I'd throw something into the fray here.

One of the things that bothers most of the Christians and Catholics especially is the seemingly vile reaction to relatively inert things. For example filing lawsuite to remove Christmas trees or complaining about store greeters who wish you a merry christmas. That sort of thing really get people's defences up and turn up the religion because they feel the exact same thing is happening to them and they don't see it as throwing it in people's faces. If people can not take all this stuff so personally or be offended so easily that will solve many problems. I definitely agree with live and let live. So many problems would disappear if more lived my that motto.

And for the record if it gives me any credibility I was raised catholic but have rebelled a bit against the church. Still a believer but having your faith tested really makes you analyze what you believe and be more careful about blindly accepting things..

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Christ is Risen!

What happened to the point of your last post "that we don't know what would have happened if Christianity had not been the dominant religion" (which was addressed). Not to mention the previous post that you successfully raised your own issue of origination and then refuted it.

I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.

I had a pizza on Friday, 2/27/81. It was delicious. My BMI today is south of obese, but north of fit.

I think that's Lynah's point.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Foxton reviles all religion not just Christianity.

Indeed.

What happened to the point of your last post "that we don't know what would have happened if Christianity had not been the dominant religion" (which was addressed). Not to mention the previous post that you successfully raised your own issue of origination and then refuted it.

I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.

No reason to consider such a hypothetical, when xtians aren't in control, the wealth of knowledge available grows. They still try to do it today with their attempts to bring down established scientific theories for their mindless nonsense. There are currently a handful of bills floating around in state legislatures that are trying to shove that foot in the door.

You seem hung up on the idea that they helped grow universities/libraries and so they also helped grow knowledge, when the latter only occurred when restrictions put in place by the religion were relaxed. "Paganism" was outlawed outright. If it didn't line up with their theocracy, it was eliminated.

It's a credit to those who did preserve that which was heretical in the face of divine doctrine. The world would truly be better off if putting on their bible glasses hadn't been the default. At least not every culture fell into the trappings of going from 'I wonder' to 'I know'.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.

This touches on how religious scholars tended to sow the seeds of irreligiosity.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

This touches on how religious scholars tended to sow the seeds of irreligiosity.

Ya.

Regarding this Spong guy, IMO if one determines that the Bible is not strictly literal...pretty much the argument I heard is gone. This...more quickly then it took him to explain it. Afterall, the purpose of the Bible is not to describe reality...but rather to set up guidelines on how to live. And no Jesus is not floating around Venus.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Afterall, the purpose of the Bible is not to describe reality...but rather to set up guidelines on how to live. And no Jesus is not floating around Venus.

By what measure do you decide what is and what isn't literal? What part of it says not to take it literally when it describes reality?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

By what measure do you decide what is and what isn't literal? What part of it says not to take it literally when it describes reality?

Treating as a serious question...

Many assume that the Bible is exactly literal if for no other reason because most books today are such. There is no place that it claims that each specific word is to be taken as is...but it does talk about the general message or 'word'.

Rather if you think about it at all, you reach the conclusion that ultimately the Bible is about Jesus...he's God or son of God, he came late, was documented and set the record straight. Well Jesus was all about stories and metaphors to make larger points. 'He without sin should cast the first stone'. This is obviously not about putting together laws on stoning...but rather a message about judgement. He did not spend his days putting together a legal system by the government should operate...but rather was putting together a system by which we should live. Its reinforced over and over again.

Thus as a collection of metaphors to set up an overall approach to life is what Jesus was all about (and he is essentially God)...why wouldn't the Bible do the same?

 

[geezer]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The book discussed in these ongoing essays might be interesting. I like how he explains the difference between "orthodoxy" and "fundamentalism".

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Ya.

Regarding this Spong guy, IMO if one determines that the Bible is not strictly literal...pretty much the argument I heard is gone. This...more quickly then it took him to explain it. Afterall, the purpose of the Bible is not to describe reality...but rather to set up guidelines on how to live. And no Jesus is not floating around Venus.

I'd say the Bible is all about Jesus and getting to know him, and good healthy ways of living come out of that, but aren't the direct purpose.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I'd say the Bible is all about Jesus and getting to know him, and good healthy ways of living come out of that, but aren't the direct purpose.

The New Testament I can absolutely see that. I don't really see that in the Old Testament, which seems more the Homeric myths of the Jewish people.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The New Testament I can absolutely see that. I don't really see that in the Old Testament, which seems more the Homeric myths of the Jewish people.

Certainly there's a lot more stuff going on in different directions in the Old Testament, and some of it's hard to always make sense of. Nothing wrong in admitting that, whether one is a Christian or not. I think parts of the Old Testament they are telling stories and history and it isn't meant to literally do what every verse says happened, since a lot of bad stuff happened to people at times. Maybe a way to say it is that the New Testament builds on the Old Testament. There's a fair amount of foreshadowing of New Testament stuff here and there in the Old Testament.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The book discussed in these ongoing essays might be interesting. I like how he explains the difference between "orthodoxy" and "fundamentalism".

Reads like a longer version of George Carlin's distillation of the Ten Commandments down to two.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Certainly there's a lot more stuff going on in different directions in the Old Testament, and some of it's hard to always make sense of. Nothing wrong in admitting that, whether one is a Christian or not. I think parts of the Old Testament they are telling stories and history and it isn't meant to literally do what every verse says happened, since a lot of bad stuff happened to people at times. Maybe a way to say it is that the New Testament builds on the Old Testament. There's a fair amount of foreshadowing of New Testament stuff here and there in the Old Testament.

I've always said I consider the old testament to be the introduction to the big show. I think that's what got me on Handy's ignore list.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Treating as a serious question...

I wait with bated breath.

Many assume that the Bible is exactly literal if for no other reason because most books today are such.

It's probably more that it very often uses plain, unambiguous statements of things that they say happened, and it's only been with the passage of time and new discoveries that it's statements have no longer been taken as fact. You seem to be interested in history, do you not know this? It's not because books 'today' are literal.

There is no place that it claims that each specific word is to be taken as is...but it does talk about the general message or 'word'.

There's no place it says to take it with a grain of salt. And that word is the divine truth. And the truth isn't really the truth unless it's 100% true.

Rather if you think about it at all, you reach the conclusion that ultimately the Bible is about Jesus...he's God or son of God, he came late, was documented and set the record straight.

What was the problem with getting it right in the first place? Seriously, it's not like your god wasn't active when telling the jews exactly how they were supposed to live. He even took the time, much longer than it took him to create all of reality, to inform the jews on how to create an arc so he could travel with them, and how they should sacrifice animals to him. (Because burning animal flesh was a pleasing smell to him)

Well Jesus was all about stories and metaphors to make larger points.

Is he a metaphor or not? Why is everything else a metaphor but he's literal? I ask again, by what measure is this decided. Is it just because this sounds nice and fits with what I like? Why aren't the things that he drew his figurative power from literal? Events or passages that he affirmed directly were literal. World wide flood, Adam and Eve, Jonah getting swallowed by a giant fish. He references all of them as if they happened.

'He without sin should cast the first stone'. This is obviously not about putting together laws on stoning...but rather a message about judgement.

It's Jesus justifying himself by using OT law. (More confirmation of him viewing it as not just a bunch of fluff to pass over in order to get to him) Don't believe that? Here's the next part where he directly says what he's doing.

John 8:13-18
"13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

18 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

But since everyone's a dirty sinner only jeebus can judge.

Thus as a collection of metaphors to set up an overall approach to life is what Jesus was all about (and he is essentially God)...why wouldn't the Bible do the same?

Since you said you were taking the question seriously, how are you deciding what is and what isn't literal?

 

[duper]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I wonder if Foxton realizes how dumb that question is?

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I wonder if Foxton realizes how dumb that question is?

This is a thread attempting to celebrate a jewish guy, who's mother stuck to her story, who rose from the dead, although there are at least half a dozen individuals and hundreds/thousands of others mentioned who also did this feat, who wants you to drink his blood and eat his flesh so you can live with him and his father for eternity.

I think me asking how does one pick and chose which method they use to follow their cosmic north korean dictator isn't that out of line.

 

[Greyeagle]

Re: Christ is Risen!

This is a thread attempting to celebrate a jewish guy, who's mother stuck to her story, who rose from the dead, although there are at least half a dozen individuals and hundreds/thousands of others mentioned who also did this feat, who wants you to drink his blood and eat his flesh so you can live with him and his father for eternity.

I think me asking how does one pick and chose which method they use to follow their cosmic north korean dictator isn't that out of line.

Jesus & Kim would be a hell of a pairing in the final day of The Masters.