Christ is Risen!

[joecct]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Never believed in transsubstantiation myself, and don't know anyone that does. But I'm sure there are some very traditional Catholics and such that still do.

HERE!!!!

I also never receive communion in the hand. Can't do it. (1) That's not the way I was taught way back when and (2) My hands are not anointed - only anointed hands should be able to touch the consecrated host. I also avoid the Extraordinary Ministers as much as possible. Call me a Traddy, I guess.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Christ is Risen!

bigotry plain and simple. its sad. in 2012 we still live with religious intolerance.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Christ is Risen!

We've been around this bend before.Sadly the concept of live and let live is not OK when it comes to religion for Foxton. .... What puzzles me is the obsessive need Foxton has to insert all this animus.

It seems to me that Foxton is a passionate evangelical and he is trying to convert people to his religion. There is a saying that goes something like "people are most impatient with those deficiencies in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." (the person who is chronically late is enraged whenever anyone makes him wait, etc. etc.). He is just as devoted and just as passionate as any other fundamentalist. That makes him impatient with other evangelicals and fundamentalists because he knows secretly in his heart of hearts that he is just like that himself, and he cannot help himself, he acts out in the very same manner that he decries in others.

Foxton pretends to be most impatient with belief in others because his is so aware of the void inside himself. Rather than be impatient with him, the civilized response is to pity him. My heart goes out to him for his poverty of spirit. He is miserable and chooses to make others unhappy so that he doesn't have to experience directly how bad he really feels, he tries to shift the burden from himself onto others instead. It's a tamer version of King Lear howling at the storm.

It is interesting that some scientists have done empirical studies on the efficacy of prayer and have found some evidence that prayer does make a difference in healing. You can ascribe it to a placebo effect, but it seems to me that that's merely another way of saying, yes prayer does work because it gives people more confidence that they really will recover. The placebo effect can be viewed as another form of "faith" the way it is described and defined.

Perhaps if we all stop reacting to him then he'll realize that his behavior is causing his isolation and his isolation is causing his misery and he'll learn to play nicely with others. One can only hope.

In a thread devoted to salvation, we can all say a prayer that he find healing.

After all, he doesn't have to believe in prayer himself to benefit from prayers on his behalf!

 

[state of hockey]

bigotry plain and simple. its sad. in 2012 we still live with religious intolerance.

Cue the HELP!!! WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED!!!!! pie chart...

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Soo...I picked an interesting insight the other night.

There has always been a controversial issue about going to heaven among those not exposed to Chrisitianity (among Christians). The thought goes that Jesus says...I am the way, the truth and the light...no one goes to heaven except through me (I think I have that right). But does that mean that someone in borneo can't go to heaven. Some Christians think so. But that has never sat right with me. Indeed, Jesus has said as clearly as possible...do not judge (highlighted with the proposed stoning of Mary). It all hasn't seemed to jive.

Then through additional readings I picked it up..I reached the conclusion that the Bible is written for me. That is to say...directly for me and nobody else. Let me explain.

When I read the text about the way and how to live...its written as though I'm the only audience to read and apply. The principles are not designed for me to project on others. That would be judgement. But rather for others who read it to project on themselves. It does tell me how to treat others with kindness, but not to project its morality on others. In the end, it is written for whomever is reading the text at the time in isolation.

So in the end, it says nothing about whether folks who have not been exposed are going to heaven. But based on the mindset of Jesus, it appears favorable.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

bigotry plain and simple. its sad. in 2012 we still live with religious intolerance.

How sad, I apologize for persecuting you, here's a video I found that also apologizes.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5xrMho4pE7A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

one big ad hominem

You're amazing.

It is interesting that some scientists have done empirical studies on the efficacy of prayer and have found some evidence that prayer does make a difference in healing. You can ascribe it to a placebo effect, but it seems to me that that's merely another way of saying, yes prayer does work because it gives people more confidence that they really will recover. The placebo effect can be viewed as another form of "faith" the way it is described and defined.

Roflcopter. Argument from ignorance now, you don't understand so faith or jesus. Oh and faith applies to pretty much everything.

 

[Biddco]

Re: Christ is Risen!

It's like clockwork, someone makes a thread on religion and Foxton makes his only posts of the year. Just stop, you're making us non religious types look awful.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Christ is Risen!

He hates kittens and otters too

Otters?

 

[leswp1]

Re: Christ is Risen!

HERE!!!!

I also never receive communion in the hand. Can't do it. (1) That's not the way I was taught way back when and (2) My hands are not anointed - only anointed hands should be able to touch the consecrated host. I also avoid the Extraordinary Ministers as much as possible. Call me a Traddy, I guess.

Brought up UU and then brought myself to the Lutheran Church to be baptized. The original upbringing gave me an insatiable curiousity for why people worship the way they do. Taught confirmations for awhile with a lot of kids whose parents had left the Catholic Church and came to us. They all seemed to have been taught different things about the 'rule' for communion. Communion is discussed in the Last Supper and again in Corinthians (not leaving out the slaves/servants etc) but other than that seems to be a 'man made' ritual (Probably not the right way to phrase it). The actual Mass was something that was not standardized until after Martin Luther and others questioned the church (I think about 90 yrs afterwards) so when did they make all the elaborate rules for communion?

From what I understand in the earliest days of the church communion was part of the larger meal served where the faithful gathered. Does anyone know when they decided to take the community out of it and make it something that was less inclusive as far as distribution/ who can consecrate etc? This has always confused me. What is the thought process behind the not being able to touch it or the priest being the only one to touch it/ consecrate it? Even in the Lutheran Church, which has stressed there is no need for a 'middle man' to confess sin or receive forgiveness the Pastor has to consecrate it.

Mr. les who was brought up Catholic has absolutely no interest in any of it as far as going to church etc but still has strong feelings about what is appropriate for communion. He can't explain why he it has to be a certain way except it was the way he was brought up. (Oh and his stock answer- it is a miracle!)

 

[Kepler]

Re: Christ is Risen!

What is the thought process behind the not being able to touch it or the priest being the only one to touch it/ consecrate it?

The thought process is that the authority to perform the ritual passed from the Apostles to their successors (the priesthood) and not to the general congregation.

Roman Catholic theology holds that the apostolic succession effects the power and authority to administer the sacraments except for baptism and matrimony. (Baptism may be administered by anyone and matrimony by the couple to each other). Authority to so administer such sacraments is passed on only through the sacrament of Holy Orders, a rite by which a priest is ordained (ordination can be conferred only by a bishop). The bishop, of course, must be from an unbroken line of bishops stemming from the original apostles selected by Jesus Christ. Thus, apostolic succession is necessary for the valid celebration of the sacraments today.

If Christianity developed like most human institutions the initial observance was probably more in spirit and communal, and then as the priesthood developed as a formal institution it gathered these duties into controlled rituals to perpetuate and aggrandize itself.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Soo...I picked an interesting insight the other night.
...
When I read the text about the way and how to live...its written as though I'm the only audience to read and apply. The principles are not designed for me to project on others. That would be judgement. But rather for others who read it to project on themselves. It does tell me how to treat others with kindness, but not to project its morality on others. In the end, it is written for whomever is reading the text at the time in isolation.

Thank you. That is a very effective interpretation. It is the contrapositive of one of my favorite aphorisms from the Gospels (because it is one of those that challenge me most directly!):

"Why are you so concerned about the splinter in your neighbor's eye while you ignore the plank in your own?"


and for some reason as well, it also reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from the Tao Te-Ching: "The Way that can be spoken of / Is not the Constant Way."


For those unfamiliar with this Lao Tzu classic, it is highly recommended. I actually own three different translations, and each one of them reads quite differently from the other two. It is a humbling reminder that spiritual poetry written in another language sometimes is untranslateable if you want to capture the essence of what is written....a reminder that might be helpful sometimes when people debate Biblical passages, which sometimes reflect transcription bias or translation bias as well as the original Message.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Christ is Risen!

We've been around this bend before.Sadly the concept of live and let live is not OK when it comes to religion for Foxton. Some of the discussion is very interesting (sorry Kep) and helpful to understand why there is a negative reaction. What puzzles me is the obsessive need Foxton has to insert all this animus into a thread started for people to rejoice. There is a difference between intelligent discourse and nasty. Happens every yr. Easier to just ignore (ignore is such a lovely fieature!) the venom, read the intelligent stuff and remember what the original purpose of the thread is.

My fault. Humbly apologize for my role in dragging this thread down a bit. Should have acknowledged that earlier and stepped out. This is definitely not a subject I claim to be an expert on, just think I had a unique take or two that I wanted to share. Plus didn't know this was Foxton's thing. Carry on

My husband (Lapsed Catholic) will tell you with a chuckle "Its a mystery! You aren't supposed to think about it!!"

Oh I totally agree. That's what faith is.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Christ is Risen!

It is interesting that some scientists have done empirical studies on the efficacy of prayer and have found some evidence that prayer does make a difference in healing. You can ascribe it to a placebo effect, but it seems to me that that's merely another way of saying, yes prayer does work because it gives people more confidence that they really will recover. The placebo effect can be viewed as another form of "faith" the way it is described and defined.

I don't have a source, either, but I heard an NPR piece several years ago about a study that was done where they found the opposite.

They recruited a host of self-declared Christians to pray for randomly chosen sick people in a hospital. They found no effect at all - unless they told the sick person that they had hundreds of people praying for them. Those who were told actually ended up doing slightly *worse* than would have been otherwise expected. The researchers' theory was that perhaps upon hearing that so many people were praying for them, the patients thought, "holy crap - I must be in a lot worse shape than I thought!"

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I don't have a source, either, but I heard an NPR piece several years ago about a study that was done where they found the opposite.

They recruited a host of self-declared Christians to pray for randomly chosen sick people in a hospital. They found no effect at all - unless they told the sick person that they had hundreds of people praying for them. Those who were told actually ended up doing slightly *worse* than would have been otherwise expected. The researchers' theory was that perhaps upon hearing that so many people were praying for them, the patients thought, "holy crap - I must be in a lot worse shape than I thought!"

Two things amazed me about the study I read. First, it was a "double-blind" study. Second, it sounded like the people conducting the study had set out to prove the opposite and themselves were surprised by the results!

Unfortunately the details weren't divulged in the article that reported it. I have a paper copy in a file box gathering dust in the basement. Some day (hah!) I'd love to scan my archives to make them searchable....shows you how often I reference some of them that they haven't been unpacked since we moved. Only the past three or four years are saved in PDF format (now I just print directly to PDF, saves lots of paper and improves searching as well).

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I don't have a source, either, but I heard an NPR piece several years ago about a study that was done where they found the opposite.

They recruited a host of self-declared Christians to pray for randomly chosen sick people in a hospital. They found no effect at all - unless they told the sick person that they had hundreds of people praying for them. Those who were told actually ended up doing slightly *worse* than would have been otherwise expected. The researchers' theory was that perhaps upon hearing that so many people were praying for them, the patients thought, "holy crap - I must be in a lot worse shape than I thought!"

I don't know the extent to which this has directly effected my faith, but...

I had a close relative who was diagnosed several times with a late stage of cancer. I (and several others) set off on a rigorous regiment of prayer...it was something we could do. It was later determined that each of those diagnoses were wrong. I'm not claiming I know what happened there...but it did happen. Its a small sample size, but it had a big impact.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Christ is Risen!

If Christianity developed like most human institutions the initial observance was probably more in spirit and communal, and then as the priesthood developed as a formal institution it gathered these duties into controlled rituals to perpetuate and aggrandize itself.

That's not a bad description of much of Christian history, and it has repeated itself over and over again. That's why my wife and I aren't big on institutions/rituals. If others get something out of that, I have no problem with it. But I generally find the institutional/ritual/control side of things tends to kill off the spiritual/communal/relational aspects that I think is really what God's interested in.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I don't have a source, either, but I heard an NPR piece several years ago about a study that was done where they found the opposite.

They recruited a host of self-declared Christians to pray for randomly chosen sick people in a hospital. They found no effect at all - unless they told the sick person that they had hundreds of people praying for them. Those who were told actually ended up doing slightly *worse* than would have been otherwise expected. The researchers' theory was that perhaps upon hearing that so many people were praying for them, the patients thought, "holy crap - I must be in a lot worse shape than I thought!"

I'm not surprised at all that an artificially set up test of whether prayer works or not would give those results. If it went otherwise, I'd really be surprised.

 

[MUnRPI]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Otters?

otters

 

[Kepler]

Re: Christ is Risen!

That's not a bad description of much of Christian history, and it has repeated itself over and over again. That's why my wife and I aren't big on institutions/rituals. If others get something out of that, I have no problem with it. But I generally find the institutional/ritual/control side of things tends to kill off the spiritual/communal/relational aspects that I think is really what God's interested in.

I agree. The it that religion is trying to get at lives in our hearts. If a church helps you connect with it, great. If not, find another path.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Anyone who primarily uses the lense of church to view the base religion or faith...will get a bias of some sort.