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Christ is Risen!
- Thread starter Timothy A
- Start date
Re: Christ is Risen!
The Jesus message is that through compassion you avoid torment. The word hell is in the gospels about 20 times, love about 180. There's little question what Jesus was about.
It largely has been a hospital. From wiki...
The declaration of Christianity as accepted religion in the Roman Empire drove an expansion of the provision of care. Following First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. construction of a hospital in every cathedral town was begun. Medieval hospitals in Europe followed a similar pattern to the Byzantine. They were religious communities, with care provided by monks and nuns.
Without that either one of our lineages could have been wiped out.
Today, Christianity would not be fullfilling its mission as a positive influence on society by pushing itself further into such a complex area with such critical consequences where there are more specialized organizations on healthcare. But still Christianity is a focal point for massive donations often making healthcare possible and Christian hopitals still host 18% of American hospital beds. So the religion has done about as much as it possibly can...and over time has given more at little or no cost to care recipients than all other institutions combined.
The Jesus message is that through compassion you avoid torment. The word hell is in the gospels about 20 times, love about 180. There's little question what Jesus was about.
It largely has been a hospital. From wiki...
The declaration of Christianity as accepted religion in the Roman Empire drove an expansion of the provision of care. Following First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. construction of a hospital in every cathedral town was begun. Medieval hospitals in Europe followed a similar pattern to the Byzantine. They were religious communities, with care provided by monks and nuns.
Without that either one of our lineages could have been wiped out.
Today, Christianity would not be fullfilling its mission as a positive influence on society by pushing itself further into such a complex area with such critical consequences where there are more specialized organizations on healthcare. But still Christianity is a focal point for massive donations often making healthcare possible and Christian hopitals still host 18% of American hospital beds. So the religion has done about as much as it possibly can...and over time has given more at little or no cost to care recipients than all other institutions combined.
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Re: Christ is Risen!
That's why it's a real shame that you'll be going to hell due to this belief (according to my fundie friends) - see you there.
Seriously, though - the church I grew up in was a huge (3000+ members) mainstream Methodist church, one of the largest and most prestigious in our conference. Our senior pastors basically always retired, because placement at our church was generally the pinnacle of a long career. Except for this one distinguished pastor, who was run out of the church on a rail. His offense? During a private discussion with a church member on various theological topics, this well-regarded pastor had the temerity to suggest that he wouldn't be surprised to see Gandhi in heaven. Not that Gandhi *should* be in heaven or would *definitely* be in heaven - just that he wouldn't be surprised. The Congregation rebelled and decided as a body that he was not fit to be the spiritual leader of the church.
My situation is quite a bit like disliking a particular hockey program just because you had a bad experience with a few of their fans - but when you see patterns of behavior repeated many times, how can you *not* be shaped by your experience?
Tim, you seem to be and extremely genuine, compassionate person who truly approaches evangelism as sharing your faith as a gift, rather than as an orthodoxy to be imposed. I recognize and appreciate the difference - I have no doubt that you will be successful in attracting many people to Christianity.
That's why it's a real shame that you'll be going to hell due to this belief (according to my fundie friends) - see you there.
Seriously, though - the church I grew up in was a huge (3000+ members) mainstream Methodist church, one of the largest and most prestigious in our conference. Our senior pastors basically always retired, because placement at our church was generally the pinnacle of a long career. Except for this one distinguished pastor, who was run out of the church on a rail. His offense? During a private discussion with a church member on various theological topics, this well-regarded pastor had the temerity to suggest that he wouldn't be surprised to see Gandhi in heaven. Not that Gandhi *should* be in heaven or would *definitely* be in heaven - just that he wouldn't be surprised. The Congregation rebelled and decided as a body that he was not fit to be the spiritual leader of the church.
5mn_Major said:
My situation is quite a bit like disliking a particular hockey program just because you had a bad experience with a few of their fans - but when you see patterns of behavior repeated many times, how can you *not* be shaped by your experience?
Re: Christ is Risen!
Roman Catholics believe the same as Tim. Once you're baptized, the sin of Adam (and all other sins) is wiped out - you are a new person spiritually.
As to who is in heaven - I leave that up to the Supreme Judge - no sense in arguing down here. Heck if Peter can get in after denying Him 3 times, anyone can.
Roman Catholics believe the same as Tim. Once you're baptized, the sin of Adam (and all other sins) is wiped out - you are a new person spiritually.
As to who is in heaven - I leave that up to the Supreme Judge - no sense in arguing down here. Heck if Peter can get in after denying Him 3 times, anyone can.
Foxton
Banned
Re: Christ is Risen!
....
Alright Fischer.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8FmIMAA46A8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I'm pretty sure I would rank everyone above your god in the compassion compartment if eternal torment is one of two options that you lay out. Hopefully those poor people who haven't heard the good news will get a pardon.
And it's so fantastic that things that happened nearly two thousand years ago, negates how today's opulence of various denominations isn't rather hypocritical. Nevermind that the power of religion at that time was absolute and no one else could have possibly created anyplace to provide even the most basic of medical care, if places run by people who make Mother Theresa look like a physician can be considered hospitals. They did their best to work with faith based cures and maybe some based on barbarian methods, which they then proceeded to stamp out on their way to the dark ages. Which I'm sure next you'll say weren't kind of a horrible era to live in. It's not really until the black death that the masses stopped trying to pray away demons to cure disease when it decimated Europe.
Remind me again what they did at that council? Was it, by vote, decide what fit their idea of doctrine and what didn't? Funny way of deciding divine truth.
Nah, I'm tired of talking about a guy who raped, pillaged, and slaughtered thousands on a daily basis making his way to tholy land.
Through compassion.... you avoid torment...
....
Alright Fischer.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8FmIMAA46A8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I'm pretty sure I would rank everyone above your god in the compassion compartment if eternal torment is one of two options that you lay out. Hopefully those poor people who haven't heard the good news will get a pardon.
Where else would we go?
Source - The catholic encyclopedia who "exerted its beneficent influence; the same spirit of charity appears wherever the Christian Faith is spread among the fierce and uncultured peoples just emerging from barbarism."
And it's so fantastic that things that happened nearly two thousand years ago, negates how today's opulence of various denominations isn't rather hypocritical. Nevermind that the power of religion at that time was absolute and no one else could have possibly created anyplace to provide even the most basic of medical care, if places run by people who make Mother Theresa look like a physician can be considered hospitals. They did their best to work with faith based cures and maybe some based on barbarian methods, which they then proceeded to stamp out on their way to the dark ages. Which I'm sure next you'll say weren't kind of a horrible era to live in. It's not really until the black death that the masses stopped trying to pray away demons to cure disease when it decimated Europe.
Remind me again what they did at that council? Was it, by vote, decide what fit their idea of doctrine and what didn't? Funny way of deciding divine truth.
Funny how they didn't keep up with the times. They had such a great head start, what with the money and the owning/running most of them.
Well that's amazing!
Re: Christ is Risen!
Why is it that everyone sees diversity in their own groups (liberals, conservatives, etc) but paints other groups with a broad brush? There are extremists in every segment and group...not least athiests.
I see nothing here that refutes the fact that Christianity and heath care have had and still have a strong interrelationship, including:
Massive increase in health care during the Roman Era coming from Christianity
Medieval health care largely conducted by Christians
Is the top conduit of charitable contributions to health care today
Still maintains a substantial amount of health care facilities in one of the world's most complex and challenging fields
We haven't even touched on the fact that Christians founded or Christianity is the basis of 7 of the US' top 10 charitable organizations, including the top 3: United Way, Salvation Army and Feed the Children.
Why is it that everyone sees diversity in their own groups (liberals, conservatives, etc) but paints other groups with a broad brush? There are extremists in every segment and group...not least athiests.
I see nothing here that refutes the fact that Christianity and heath care have had and still have a strong interrelationship, including:
Massive increase in health care during the Roman Era coming from Christianity
Medieval health care largely conducted by Christians
Is the top conduit of charitable contributions to health care today
Still maintains a substantial amount of health care facilities in one of the world's most complex and challenging fields
We haven't even touched on the fact that Christians founded or Christianity is the basis of 7 of the US' top 10 charitable organizations, including the top 3: United Way, Salvation Army and Feed the Children.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Pretty much most of EVERYTHING in medieval Europe was conducted by Christians - health care, libraries, universities, oh, but also inquisitions, crusades, wars, etc.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Its truly unfortunate yet understandable that your perspective is colored by your experiences. I've always felt people need to learn for themselves...and not take the experiences of others as to the nature of anything.
The inquisitions/crusades were dark moments in history which have led to complications in foriegn policy, yet today they have relatively minor impacts on society. Meanwhile nearly all of worldwide day to day civilization is built on the foundation of the health care, libraries, universities you mention.
Also remember that healthcare, libraries and universities were 100% consistent with the major planks of Christianity...including do good for your common neighbor and healing work done by Jesus. The negative aspects you mention are/were counter to the most important tenents of the faith. "Blessed are the peacemakers", "Turn the other cheek", "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others." Again we're blaming a handful of key decision makers and lackeys for political actions made in the name of the faith...that go counter to the faith.
Just as with extremists and religion, the KKK is more patriotic than about anyone and has fully interpreted meaning behind this country. I assume that athiests are against KKK beliefs...then shouldn't athiests similarly dislike the United States as it apparently is all about racism and bigotry?
Its truly unfortunate yet understandable that your perspective is colored by your experiences. I've always felt people need to learn for themselves...and not take the experiences of others as to the nature of anything.
The inquisitions/crusades were dark moments in history which have led to complications in foriegn policy, yet today they have relatively minor impacts on society. Meanwhile nearly all of worldwide day to day civilization is built on the foundation of the health care, libraries, universities you mention.
Also remember that healthcare, libraries and universities were 100% consistent with the major planks of Christianity...including do good for your common neighbor and healing work done by Jesus. The negative aspects you mention are/were counter to the most important tenents of the faith. "Blessed are the peacemakers", "Turn the other cheek", "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others." Again we're blaming a handful of key decision makers and lackeys for political actions made in the name of the faith...that go counter to the faith.
Just as with extremists and religion, the KKK is more patriotic than about anyone and has fully interpreted meaning behind this country. I assume that athiests are against KKK beliefs...then shouldn't athiests similarly dislike the United States as it apparently is all about racism and bigotry?
Foxton
Banned
Re: Christ is Risen!
Minor impacts on society? Have you seen the situation in the middle east lately? The last two world wars were part of the long history of unending warfare that occurred in Europe as they squabbled over who had the better interpretation.
Those things did not originate with the xtians, but like most things you've absorbed you'll gladly claim they always were.
Minor impacts on society? Have you seen the situation in the middle east lately? The last two world wars were part of the long history of unending warfare that occurred in Europe as they squabbled over who had the better interpretation.
Yea like slavery, that Jesus said what about? Do you also follow the quotes about giving up everything and blindly following Jesus because everything was supposed to end within his disciples lifetime? Good prediction that.
I smell straw.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Thank you huskyfan! That means a lot that you took the time to research that.
Thank you huskyfan! That means a lot that you took the time to research that.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Seeing as you've taken a pass at the influence of Christianity in the development of health care:
Universities: European higher education took place for hundreds of years in Christian cathedral schools or monastic schools (Scholae monasticae), in which monks and nuns taught classes; evidence of these immediate forerunners of the later university at many places dates back to the 6th century AD. The earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church, usually from cathedral schools or by papal bull as studia generalia.
Libraries and ancient knowledge that drives today's society: The contents of the great Greek works in Islamic libraries were copied by Christian monks in Muslim/Christian border areas, particularly Spain and Sicily. From there they eventually made their way into other parts of Christian Europe. These copies joined works that had been preserved directly by Christian monks from Greek and Roman originals, as well as copies Western Christian monks made of Byzantine works. The resulting conglomerate libraries are the basis of every modern library today.
Seeing as you've taken a pass at the influence of Christianity in the development of health care:
Universities: European higher education took place for hundreds of years in Christian cathedral schools or monastic schools (Scholae monasticae), in which monks and nuns taught classes; evidence of these immediate forerunners of the later university at many places dates back to the 6th century AD. The earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church, usually from cathedral schools or by papal bull as studia generalia.
Libraries and ancient knowledge that drives today's society: The contents of the great Greek works in Islamic libraries were copied by Christian monks in Muslim/Christian border areas, particularly Spain and Sicily. From there they eventually made their way into other parts of Christian Europe. These copies joined works that had been preserved directly by Christian monks from Greek and Roman originals, as well as copies Western Christian monks made of Byzantine works. The resulting conglomerate libraries are the basis of every modern library today.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Serious question: is the argument here of the form:
1. We like modern hospitals and universities.
2. Modern hospitals and universities developed closely with religion.
3. If not for religion, we would not have anything like modern hospitals and universities.
4. People should celebrate religion, because it is only due to the positive impact of religion that we are learned enough to question it.
It's tempting, but it's also the case that modern hospitals and universities were decisively influenced by, well, modernity.
God help us all if universities had not been transformed from the model of a millennium ago.
Serious question: is the argument here of the form:
1. We like modern hospitals and universities.
2. Modern hospitals and universities developed closely with religion.
3. If not for religion, we would not have anything like modern hospitals and universities.
4. People should celebrate religion, because it is only due to the positive impact of religion that we are learned enough to question it.
It's tempting, but it's also the case that modern hospitals and universities were decisively influenced by, well, modernity.
God help us all if universities had not been transformed from the model of a millennium ago.
huskyfan
New member
Re: Christ is Risen!
my Greek is a little rusty. alot rusty.
Thank you huskyfan! That means a lot that you took the time to research that.
my Greek is a little rusty. alot rusty.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Spray some Windex on it.my Greek is a little rusty. alot rusty.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Christ is Risen!
[video]http://www.angryalien.com/0605/pulpfictionbuns.asp[/video]
Oh... "Greek."
Gross.my Greek is a little rusty. alot rusty.
[video]http://www.angryalien.com/0605/pulpfictionbuns.asp[/video]
Oh... "Greek."