Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

[mookie1995]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing the avg Greek is doing better than the avg American given the financial chaos that country is in.

kep was nice enough to give us a link that used 2011 & 2013 data

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Except that's nonsense. I'm sure you can find some people who think like that, in the same way that there are people who think if you don't vote for Hillary you're part of the Evil Patriarchy. There are idiots everywhere. But if instead of setting up straw men you engage with the Bernie supporter you have standing (typing) in front of you, it becomes a lot harder to denigrate the whole group.

The difference here seems to be that while there are plenty of idiot Clintonistas I've been bending over backwards to accommodate them and invite them to dine on the warm corpse of conservative hypocrisy, whereas you continually fall back on these silly generalizations. Here's a thought: you won't agree with all Bernie's arguments just like I won't agree with all of Hillary's, but instead of concentrating on the differences and going for the jugular maybe we should accentuate our areas of agreement and keep eyes on the November prize?

Lets put it another way. Name me a Bernie proposal that you either disagree with, or that you find unworkable even if he had a Dem Congress?

I can tell you I don't think Hillary's goal of universal care (not the same as single payer) isn't really hashed out that well. I personally like the ACAsignups guy's proposal better than either of them. Can you find anything about Bernie's proposals that at face value, not due to oligarchs or Republicans, that you think isn't very well thought out?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Sorry Kep, but again there are too many Bernie supporters, I'm speculating younger people, who seem to think everybody who makes money is a corporate schill/Wall St fat cat. If you're in your 30's, 40's or 50's there's a good chance you've progressed enough in your career to be hitting the upper middle class. Especially in a two income household (which I don't live in currently ). I disagree with Bernie's single payer proposal because its 1) unrealistic in its assumptions, and 2) taxes people who don't deserve to be taxed. That doesn't make me a corporate sellout or a DINO or a centrist. I merely think the first plan he's detailed out of the box is unworkable. The issue I'm having is Bernie supporters are using 100% fidelity to Bernie's proposals as a litmus test for whether you can call yourself a progressive or not. They need to dial that back quite a bit.

I'd pay more taxes for a good cause. For example, gas tax should be raised to pay for increased infrastructure spending. Increasing Soc Sec limit as well. However, I need not agree to every tax increase Bernie proposes to keep my liberal bona fides.

The problem is and always has been the amount of taxes going in and what those taxes are spent on. Every year from the Repubs we here "Fraud and Abuse". Yet Appalachia still has many many false people going on Disability (60 Minutes) which is in the heart of Repub country. We spend millions on Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi. We want to defund Obamacare and Planned Parenthood yet there is STILL no alternative medical plan from the Repubs. We need infrastructure badly yet no one will increase gas taxes anywhere. And the number one pick of the Republican Establishment (Rubio) has accomplished nothing and would have us spend another 80 trillion on the Middle East. Which will be completely worthless real estate once we finally switch to alternative fuels (that we desperately need).

The greatest idea I've heard out of government in the last 16 years is what Obama announced on Cancer at the State of the Union. It's about time government started doing something positive and useful like they used to.

Quite frankly right now Bernie folks are ****ed because they're all regressively taxed and they have nothing to show for it. And every Repub in the United States says that they don't pay any taxes.

Oh, and you're 50K number is bull****.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Once again guys, too much anger and no engagement. If Bernie's supporters are angry about regressive taxation (rightfully so), why are they supporting a guy who's on record as wanting to raise their regressive taxes even higher?

So, it comes back to what I've been saying. The guy may be in the right place on rhetoric, but you have to look at if his cure is worse than the disease itself. I can easily tell you Hillary is too vague on how to expand the ACA for example. What I'm getting from even USCHO posters is Bernie does no wrong. C'mon already. I've seen written out here by Bernie people that anybody making over a certain amount should happily accept tax hikes without complaint. Look, I'll pay more but its gotta be for a good reason.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

What I'm getting from even USCHO posters is Bernie does no wrong.

That's a great point except for being completely untrue.

Meanwhile, Bernie gave my in box some hot class war action this morning:

The CEO of Goldman Sachs, Lloyd Blankfein, said yesterday our campaign represents a dangerous moment, "not just for Wall Street, but for anyone who is a little bit out of line."

I have to say, I find it a little beyond comprehension that Lloyd Blankfein would lecture our campaign about "dangerous moments" after Wall Street received huge bailouts from the working families of this country, when their greed and recklessness caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs, livelihoods, and homes just a few years ago. His arrogance has no end.

Now Wall Street is pouring money into other campaigns. But I am here to tell you that we don’t want their money and we don’t want their super PACs. We are going to do it differently. We are going to win together on the strength of millions of small donations.

Make a $3 contribution today to say you have had ENOUGH of Lloyd Blankfein and the billionaire class buying up candidates and elections in this country.

Here’s the truth: Wall Street is terrified because we are running a campaign that does not support their agenda. They never expected us to battle to a virtual draw in Iowa, and they are starting to get a bit nervous about New Hampshire too.

The next primary is less than one week away, and we have a slight lead in the polls despite opposition from the economic and political establishment in the state. But if we stand together, I know that we have a good chance to win next week.

In solidarity,

Bernie Sanders

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

You know. Rubio could win this whole thing and the Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves. We elected Obama in '08 without much on the resume and here's the GOP's answer. Santorum endorsed him yesterday and was asked point blank to name one Rubio accomplishment. He came up with a blank stare.

If he does get elected somehow (and yes, I'm still convinced Hillary will find a way to blow it and Bernie is unelectable) we're all looking at W Bush II.

 

[joecct]

You know. Rubio could win this whole thing and the Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves. We elected Obama in '08 without much on the resume and here's the GOP's answer. Santorum endorsed him yesterday and was asked point blank to name one Rubio accomplishment. He came up with a blank stare.

If he does get elected somehow (and yes, I'm still convinced Hillary will find a way to blow it and Bernie is unelectable) we're all looking at W Bush II.

Then pray you get one house of the Congress to stop the excesses.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Then pray you get one house of the Congress to stop the excesses.

Won't matter. The War is a ****ing blank check.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

That's a great point except for being completely untrue.

I noticed you didn't answer the question I posed to you however.....

A good article on point about the subject...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/02/04/vennochi/WWzuo2BZ2v95zOJ5DfBMTK/story.html

 

[joecct]

Won't matter. The War is a ****ing blank check.

Somebody needs to figure out who is REALLY funding ISIS. I would not be surprised if some Western Industrialist money is there following the principle of you have to spend money to make money.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

You know. Rubio could win this whole thing and the Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves. We elected Obama in '08 without much on the resume and here's the GOP's answer. Santorum endorsed him yesterday and was asked point blank to name one Rubio accomplishment. He came up with a blank stare.

If he does get elected somehow (and yes, I'm still convinced Hillary will find a way to blow it and Bernie is unelectable) we're all looking at W Bush II.

Rubio has little chance of winning the Presidency so I wouldn't worry about it. George W Bush had tremendous advantages Rubio doesn't have. He had governed the GOP's biggest state for 6 years during a time of economic expansion. His last name was well thought of. He had little to no problem uniting the party behind him as he had a foot in the corporate, evangelical, and military wings of the party.

Rubio can't point to one state that he's favored in vs Cruz or Trump. Worse than that even if he consolidates the establishment people, the nutter caucus (Cruz+Trump+Carson+Fiorina+Huckleberry) make up 2/3rds of the primary voters. Stop buying into the Rubio myth. He's a media creation as they desperately search for someone they can claim represents moderate Republicanism, which doesn't actually exist anymore.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Rubio has little chance of winning the Presidency so I wouldn't worry about it. George W Bush had tremendous advantages Rubio doesn't have. He had governed the GOP's biggest state for 6 years during a time of economic expansion. His last name was well thought of. He had little to no problem uniting the party behind him as he had a foot in the corporate, evangelical, and military wings of the party.

Rubio can't point to one state that he's favored in vs Cruz or Trump. Worse than that even if he consolidates the establishment people, the nutter caucus (Cruz+Trump+Carson+Fiorina+Huckleberry) make up 2/3rds of the primary voters. Stop buying into the Rubio myth. He's a media creation as they desperately search for someone they can claim represents moderate Republicanism, which doesn't actually exist anymore.

LOL. You need to look at it a little harder. Cruz and Trump are tearing eachother apart and then only one left standing that the establishment wants is Rubio. Remember, Romney and McCain didn't win the last two primaries by accident.

 

[joecct]

LOL. You need to look at it a little harder. Cruz and Trump are tearing eachother apart and then only one left standing that the establishment wants is Rubio. Remember, Romney and McCain didn't win the last two primaries by accident.

If he sticks around and the convention turns into a floor fight John Kasich may get his chance simply by being the Last Man Standing.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Can we start with "FREE COLLEGE TUITION!1!!11" as being one of Bernie's most ridiculous policy positions (if not THE most)? Frankly, I can't think of any other proposal that would singlehandedly devalue the educations of most white collar workers under 35, and drive up costs to unsustainable levels, more than what he is putting out there.

The cost of higher education has skyrocketed annually for two big reasons:

1. The ridiculous demand that all applicants for every white collar job, even entry-level positions for those with 0-2 years experience, must hold a bachelor's degree.
1a. This has resulted in parents who tell their kids they MUST finish college, or else they fail at life. This is wrong on so many levels.

2. Student loans. Too many young adults are encouraged to bank ALL of their college expenses on what amounts to an extended payday loan with slightly less usury.

Sooner or later, this country has to collectively come to its senses on the above issues. Until then, nationalizing higher education will improve nothing.

 

[joecct]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Even if the D's capture both houses and Bernie wins it all, how much of Bernie's proposals will be legislatively enacted?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

I agree Rubio is the tough one to beat. He's a nullity so it's hard to pin anything on him. It looks like the entire establishment is aligning with him to save themselves from Pinky and the Brain. He's so utterly without self-knowledge that he'll just keep yapping his four transparent talking points no matter how many times he's directly rebutted. In that way, he is Dubya.

And Rubio would be a disaster in office because the same old sad sack losers would be back in -- the neocons for war, the financiers for plutocracy. And of course their prescriptions would tank the economy and make the world explode again, which would force bigger and more terrible reactions to divert attention and duck the blame. Just like Dubya.

The Dems are running two credible versions of where we go from here. Hillary takes the end of democracy as a given and tries to work within the plutocracy to shield the groups she identifies with: middle class, educated women. Bernie performs a root analysis and correctly identifies the causal problems and how to stop them, but could lack the resources to do anything about it. Both are of course light years better than the clown car. So I don't think we're doing the wrong thing, here. The nomination will work out which strategy we pick, but in both cases we'll oppose the more loathsome instincts and plans of the orcs. I don't see how that's a bad approach.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Even if the D's capture both houses and Bernie wins it all, how much of Bernie's proposals will be legislatively enacted?

Actually, in that case, much will pass. Bernie's positions are where you want a negotiation to start. Obama taught us that it is foolish to approach a rabid opponent with a compromise offer. You match them extreme for extreme, and then you whittle down to the middle.

Here's a hint: I'm not really a socialist. I just know that we have gone so far to the far right that we need a socialist opening bid to drag us back to the center. Buckley and Goldwater and Reagan understood this, when they reversed two generations of leftward drift with a muscular, self-confident far right agenda. We must do the same.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Actually, in that case, much will pass. Bernie's positions are where you want a negotiation to start. Obama taught us that it is foolish to approach a rabid opponent with a compromise offer. You match them extreme for extreme, and then you whittle down to the middle.

Here's a hint: I'm not really a socialist. I just know that we have gone so far to the far right that we need a socialist opening bid to drag us back to the center. Buckley and Goldwater and Reagan understood this, when they reversed two generations of leftward drift with a muscular, self-confident far right agenda. We must do the same.

Providing of course he gets elected. Plus, I don't get the sense from Bernie's career or current rhetoric that he's much of a compromiser. In fact that's a lot of his appeal. If he then turns around and accepts 50 cents on the dollar (or whatever % you want to use) won't we be hearing the same thing about sell-outs and the like that he throws at everybody else who came before him?

Rubio is doomed. His saving grace right now is nobody takes him seriously except for the pathetic Jebbers! as Cruz and Trump battle it out. Problem is neither of those guys' supporters are going to end up in Rubio's camp once one or the other drops out. I can see instances where a strong second can be parlayed into a victory. I've never seen a 3rd place finish to a circus clown and a Canadian in a US election portrayed as a win. Somebody forgot to tell the voters to get on board the Rubio train alongside the media.

 

[aparch]

Can we start with "FREE COLLEGE TUITION!1!!11" as being one of Bernie's most ridiculous policy positions (if not THE most)? Frankly, I can't think of any other proposal that would singlehandedly devalue the educations of most white collar workers under 35, and drive up costs to unsustainable levels, more than what he is putting out there.

The cost of higher education has skyrocketed annually for two big reasons:

1. The ridiculous demand that all applicants for every white collar job, even entry-level positions for those with 0-2 years experience, must hold a bachelor's degree.
1a. This has resulted in parents who tell their kids they MUST finish college, or else they fail at life. This is wrong on so many levels.

2. Student loans. Too many young adults are encouraged to bank ALL of their college expenses on what amounts to an extended payday loan with slightly less usury.

Sooner or later, this country has to collectively come to its senses on the above issues. Until then, nationalizing higher education will improve nothing.

Agreed! The superiority over manual labor AND the demonization of Unions are contributing factor. I'm a big fan of the work Mike Rowe has done in promoting the trades, and wish it were more common.

As for the "Degree or GTFO," you're absolutely right. More and more firms in my industry are looking for "entry level position, must have registered P.E." for no reason other than to say they have them. I interviewed with a small firm (30 people) four years ago that was made up of mostly field inspectors and office paper pushers. Everyone including the receptionist had P.E. degrees and displayed them on their front wall.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

I think Bernie would not get the sell out message because he has a 40-year career of liberal cred. Much like only Nixon could go to China, only Bernie could reach a compromise with moderate Dems and any moderate Republicans who somehow survived the far right Night of the Long Knives.

I can't see how Rubio is doomed at all. He's projecting to be the sole survivor on Establishment Island. The short-fingered vulgarian and the Wacko Bird are going to fling dung at each other for the next 2 months. Whichever one of them starts to drop will cut a deal for influence in a Rubio administration. I want you all to close your eyes and imagine Attorney General Cruz. Scary, eh kids?