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Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

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Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Well I'm glad I'm on everybody's mind so much! ;) Is anybody worried that Bernie Sanders just called for a tax hike on the middle class to put single payer in place, which is going to get him gutted like a deer in a general election? Call me a DINO, but what world is this guy living in? Middle class voters are not going to vote to pay more taxes to re-open the whole healthcare debate yet again. :rolleyes:

Rover is Chelsea Clinton. That explains a lot.

Something I could never figure out about health care and taxes (not related to Bernie necessarily but in general): let's say you're paying 15% of your AGI on private health care, and somebody proposes a 10% across the board tax for single payer that will eliminate all of your private spending on health care. Why can't people see this is a 5% savings for them? Why are taxes not evaluated against the total amount of money you spend/save for the end result?
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Rover is Chelsea Clinton. That explains a lot.

Something I could never figure out about health care and taxes (not related to Bernie necessarily but in general): let's say you're paying 15% of your AGI on private health care, and somebody proposes a 10% across the board tax for single payer that will eliminate all of your private spending on health care. Why can't people see this is a 5% savings for them? Why are taxes not evaluated against the total amount of money you spend/save for the end result?

Because he's relying on unrealistic assumptions in his savings? Sanders healthcare plan is more generous than those in Europe. He covers everything - deductibles, co-pays, etc. Nobody pays anything for medical care. How exactly is he going to wring savings out of the system on a net basis even if he cuts overhead with that much expanded coverage? This isn't even getting into the transition costs which would be astronomical.

http://acasignups.net/16/01/18/simple-visualization-how-complex-our-healthcare-system

Not only does this have zero chance of being passed into law, he's going to cost the Dems the Senate and get the GOP closer to 60 seats as he forces Dems to defend this lunacy. What part of "middle class voters will not vote for a tax hike in order to go through the healthcare battles once again" are you not understanding Kep? How much free dope did they give you at the last Bernie rally? If this is the first time he's put forward a plan to pay for something, and he's ALREADY raising taxes on the middle class, how does he pay for everything else he proposes? What are tax rates going to be - 90% for over 250K and 50% for everybody else? Remember what happened to Mondale when he tried this?
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Because he's relying on unrealistic assumptions in his savings? Sanders healthcare plan is more generous than those in Europe. He covers everything - deductibles, co-pays, etc. Nobody pays anything for medical care. How exactly is he going to wring savings out of the system on a net basis even if he cuts overhead with that much expanded coverage? This isn't even getting into the transition costs which would be astronomical.

http://acasignups.net/16/01/18/simple-visualization-how-complex-our-healthcare-system

Not only does this have zero chance of being passed into law, he's going to cost the Dems the Senate and get the GOP closer to 60 seats as he forces Dems to defend this lunacy. What part of "middle class voters will not vote for a tax hike in order to go through the healthcare battles once again" are you not understanding Kep? How much free dope did they give you at the last Bernie rally? If this is the first time he's put forward a plan to pay for something, and he's ALREADY raising taxes on the middle class, how does he pay for everything else he proposes? What are tax rates going to be - 90% for over 250K and 50% for everybody else? Remember what happened to Mondale when he tried this?

You may need to go to the Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good, Rover. I specifically excluded the Bernie plan (which I don't have the details for) and was asking a general question about why various external costs don't get factored into people's economic thinking.

As for general taxation, you're falling into the righty "if we taxed all billionaires at 100% we still couldn't balance our budget" fallacy, and even as a Clintonista you should know better. The thing about heavily progressive taxation is it builds a larger middle class which then reduces the need for low end safety net outlays. It's expensive to maintain the plutocracy -- you have to spend tons on welfare and jails to keep 50% of the population in serfdom. Progressive taxation doesn't just cut the tops off the towers, it also allows talent to rise from any level and puts an end to the age old waste of brain power that our rationing opportunity by wealth perpetuates.

The ultra rich aren't evil. They're just a wasteful inefficiency we can't afford any more.
 
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Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Cruz hires the perfect weapon against Trump --

Palin to endorse Trump today.
 
You may need to go to the Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good, Rover. I specifically excluded the Bernie plan (which I don't have the details for) and was asking a general question about why various external costs don't get factored into people's economic thinking.

As for general taxation, you're falling into the righty "if we taxed all billionaires at 100% we still couldn't balance our budget" fallacy, and even as a Clintonista you should know better. The thing about heavily progressive taxation is it builds a larger middle class which then reduces the need for low end safety net outlays. It's expensive to maintain the plutocracy -- you have to spend tons on welfare and jails to keep 50% of the population in serfdom. Progressive taxation doesn't just cut the tops off the towers, it also allows talent to rise from any level and puts an end to the age old waste of brain power that our rationing opportunity by wealth perpetuates.

The ultra rich aren't evil. They're just a wasteful inefficiency we can't afford any more.

I thought well paying jobs expanded the middle class?

Taking money from the uber wealthy will not expand the middle class. If one could somehow level the salary scales where it looks more bell curveish, then we'd have a middle class. But that's a moral issue for the businesses, not the tax man.

And possibly bringing back manufacturing jobs back to the USA would help, too.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Because he's relying on unrealistic assumptions in his savings? Sanders healthcare plan is more generous than those in Europe. He covers everything - deductibles, co-pays, etc. Nobody pays anything for medical care. How exactly is he going to wring savings out of the system on a net basis even if he cuts overhead with that much expanded coverage? This isn't even getting into the transition costs which would be astronomical.

I'm liberal and def pro education. But it does appear that, while inspirational, Sanders is moving from a solid candidate to one of those that are looking at creating an alternate reality. Also, he's a perhaps too much of a fighter and not enough of a partnership guy.

Having a fully paid healthcare system and a fully paid educational system would be quite expensive (and the other major overhauls that I don't know of). Never mind the change over costs...and risks associated with not only any major change (but changing all these systems in a fairly compressed period of time).

Again as no worse than the second best candidate, I want Sanders and all these top tier candidates to be strong.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

You may need to go to the Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good, Rover. I specifically excluded the Bernie plan (which I don't have the details for) and was asking a general question about why various external costs don't get factored into people's economic thinking.

As for general taxation, you're falling into the righty "if we taxed all billionaires at 100% we still couldn't balance our budget" fallacy, and even as a Clintonista you should know better. The thing about heavily progressive taxation is it builds a larger middle class which then reduces the need for low end safety net outlays. It's expensive to maintain the plutocracy -- you have to spend tons on welfare and jails to keep 50% of the population in serfdom. Progressive taxation doesn't just cut the tops off the towers, it also allows talent to rise from any level and puts an end to the age old waste of brain power that our rationing opportunity by wealth perpetuates.

The ultra rich aren't evil. They're just a wasteful inefficiency we can't afford any more.

Kep this is all blah blah blah but with you missing the point due to your unnatural lust for Bernie Sanders. I posted (not to you directly) about how Sanders is campaigning now on raising middle class taxes to pay for universal health care. You posted a defense of that idea, while not mentioning Sanders specifically. I responded assuming that you were referring to Sanders plan, since..ya know..that's what I'd brought up and now you're off on some tangent making up quotes that I didn't say.

Either you need your morning coffee or you're thinking with the wrong head in terms of Bernie. :eek:

But lets be vague! Any candidate, be it someone who wears pantsuits a lot, an anonymous governor of a blue mid Atlantic state, or an old crank who walks on water, is going to get gutted like a deer by the Republicans in a general election if they run on a middle class tax hike. Agree or disagree Kep?
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Any candidate, be it someone who wears pantsuits a lot, an anonymous governor of a blue mid Atlantic state, or an old crank who walks on water, is going to get gutted like a deer by the Republicans in a general election if they run on a middle class tax hike. Agree or disagree Kep?

I agree we should take a page from Dubya: campaign as moderates, govern as radicals.

The difference between you (and the centrist half of the party) and me (and the liberal half of the party) is that you think liberal policies are aspirational and theoretical but fenced in by reality, while I think liberal policies are pragmatic and optimal in result. You keep missing the point (to the extent you even have a point amidst all the pundit snark you try to muddy the waters with) that liberalism isn't good because it's morally superior, it's good because it works. Yes, it does also happen to be morally superior, but that's just icing on the cake.

I think you are still smarting from the whuppin' we took all through the 80s whenever we had the temerity to challenge the Republicans' cynical bribe of "free stuff." It's true that when the Boomers dominated the media and politics the message that you didn't have to pay for anything resonated with their self-absorbed, intellectually lazy, entitlement character. It happened again with the housing boom and the idea that markets would never go down. Saint Ronny's irresponsibility was the American national character for a generation, and anyone who told people they had to pay their bills was booed off the stage.

But since 9/11 and the Great Recession, as the Boomers sink into Alzheimer's dotage, Americans have become far more mature and responsible. We know that the things we get cost money. We know there is no free lunch, and if you follow the GOP siren song and don't pay now, you'll pay far more later in debt service. The rest of the country has caught on to what liberals knew all along: "no new taxes!" is just a shell game that passes costs down the wealth spectrum. It's just garden variety theft from the public treasury, made up for later by austerity and regressive economics.

Plus the right is so crazy now they'll call anything they don't like Communism. Essentially, the GOP has made restoring taxes to pre-1980 levels more practical now because their chicken little routine is so mindless and blaring that people no longer even listen to it.

Liberal convictions were always correct, but for a while it was smart to be a duplicitous Clinton and not have the courage of our values, because we were dealing with a nation of whining, spoiled babies. That's no longer true -- the country grew up fast when faced with the damage that right wing quack economics did. Obama, sadly, campaigned as a liberal and governed as a centrist. Hillary will do the same. But that is no longer necessary or advisable for the country: a Sanders or Warren (or somebody else) could campaign as a liberal and govern as a liberal, and start to undo the great unraveling of American values.
 
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Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

I agree we should take a page from Dubya: campaign as moderates, govern as radicals.

The difference between you (and the centrist half of the party) and me (and the liberal half of the party) is that you think liberal policies are aspirational and theoretical but fenced in by reality, while I think liberal policies are pragmatic and optimal in result. You keep missing the point (to the extent you even have a point amidst all the pundit snark you try to muddy the waters with) that liberalism isn't good because it's morally superior, it's good because it works. Yes, it does also happen to be morally superior, but that's just icing on the cake.

But as Major alluded to Sanders proposals are starting to get into alternate reality territory. If he keeps quiet, and THEN proposes a middle class tax hike once in office....he's going to get gutted like a deer. I'm not sure what part of that you're struggling with. The appeal of Sanders has always been sticking it to Wall St and making the super rich pay for benefits for the rest of us. Sounds good and count me in. Why then is he in his first proposal that he pays for socking it to the middle class?!?!? Kindly answer that specific question if you can.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

But as Major alluded to Sanders proposals are starting to get into alternate reality territory. If he keeps quiet, and THEN proposes a middle class tax hike once in office....he's going to get gutted like a deer. I'm not sure what part of that you're struggling with. The appeal of Sanders has always been sticking it to Wall St and making the super rich pay for benefits for the rest of us. Sounds good and count me in. Why then is he in his first proposal that he pays for socking it to the middle class?!?!? Kindly answer that specific question if you can.

Find me where Sanders is "socking it to the middle class." So far the only detailed critique of any Sanders policy I have heard is the Clintons' lying about his health care plan.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Find me where Sanders is "socking it to the middle class." So far the only detailed critique of any Sanders policy I have heard is the Clintons' lying about his health care plan.

From the link I already posted (and I'm the one with reading comprehension issues...)


•A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers. Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
•A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households. Revenue raised: $210 billion per year


Now there's more to his plan than that (which I'll let you research) but aside from his raising the top level tax rate to 53% (which is fine until you consider this is just to pay for this proposal, not any of the others), he's hitting everyone with another 2.2% tax hike and a 6.2% tax on employers that we have to assume will get passed on to workers on some form or another.

So I'll say again, why are we getting hit with higher taxes???? Why are we scrapping all the hard work and effort that went into the ACA for a proposal that has zero chance of coming to fruition?
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

The RNC is trying to help Bernie get the nomination #feelthebern This has a (small) chance of blowing up in their faces big time, if they are "successful" and then the electorate has indeed matured enough to just go for it.
In any case, I don't remember an election year being as much up in the air as this one - it will be interesting.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Something I could never figure out about health care and taxes (not related to Bernie necessarily but in general): let's say you're paying 15% of your AGI on private health care, and somebody proposes a 10% across the board tax for single payer that will eliminate all of your private spending on health care. Why can't people see this is a 5% savings for them? Why are taxes not evaluated against the total amount of money you spend/save for the end result?

Because you're missing a key part of the personal equation:

I'll pay 15% to choose my doctor, my services, my level of care of at the time and place of my choosing.

Under your 10% plan you choose all those things for me. < bleep > that.

It's called personal choice, but I guess you don't register that concept unless the medical service in question is ...
 
Not sure I believe the full PolitiFact narrative, but there is no way that Reagan was solely responsible for the release of the hostages, as much as conservatives like to think that St. Ronnie rolled in on his golden chariot and immediately fixed everything. If you want to consternate a conservative, point out that unemployment remained at or well above 7% through most of 1986 - or, a significant majority of Reagan's two terms. And while inflation did sharply decline during his first term (and was his priority), it nevertheless remained above 5% for the majority of it.

If you believe unemployment is low now or inflation is low now Mookie has a bridge in Brooklyn for you :p

Lies
**** lies
And statistics :D
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

Because you're missing a key part of the personal equation:

I'll pay 15% to choose my doctor, my services, my level of care of at the time and place of my choosing.

Under your 10% plan you choose all those things for me. < bleep > that.

It's called personal choice, but I guess you don't register that concept unless the medical service in question is ...

No, I care a lot about choice. However, (1) in a system where health insurance is tied to employment you are beholden to your company's raft of choices which shrinks each year, and (2) what do you do about all the people with no choice under that system because they don't have that benefit?

I always love how the righties think they know my values because of their warped view of politics. As I've said a million times, the values of left and right are actually quite close -- it's a fight over implementation.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

In any case, I don't remember an election year being as much up in the air as this one - it will be interesting.

Last time we had Hillary, Obama and Romney (each attempted to be presidential). Now between the two sets of top runners we have:

1. the Hillary bot. A veteran, established establishment, Washington institution that would be the first woman president.
2. the Bern. A idealist fighter who will forceably optimize society via socialist means.
3. the Trump-ster. A business expert, social vigilante with a potential left winger stripe but who talks straight regardless of who gets shot in the process.
4. the Cruz missile. A right wing 'social conservative' conservative, with plans to recreate the 1740s. Did I mention he's a social conservative?

That's what will make this election season an SNL skit.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

•A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers. Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
•A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households. Revenue raised: $210 billion per year

My company is already paying out the *** for a private health insurance plan for my family (self insured, they pay something like 90% of the cost), and I'm paying something like $300 a month for the plan. Those costs would go away. So what is the net difference? I'm not sure, but my costs for healthcare certainly won't go up by 2.2% of my income.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - Snow White and the 7 dwarfs.

the Trump-ster. A business expert

I wonder if that's even true. Who really knows? The guy could be (1) just another silver spoon idiot, (2) just another silver spoon idiot but recognizes it and hires smart people and listens to them in which case good for him, or (3) somehow not an idiot despite his public persona.

My impression is he's just an ordinary con man who can bluff his way through anything.
 
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