Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

[alfablue]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

Yet, they were profitable. So, why close them? Why bring environment killing affects elsewhere when they have a perfectly working mine in place? This is again another example where government has failed us.

How is weeding out companies who are lazy to do what is required a failure of the government? We need to protect jobs as the expense of heath of our people???

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

How is weeding out companies who are lazy to do what is required a failure of the government? We need to protect jobs as the expense of heath of our people???

Find someone else to run the mine? I'm not suggesting they be allowed to break the law. Mines are a burden on the environment. Closing one down to open another elsewhere seems ridiculous to me.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

My WOTUS concern: A power station in western ND built its own lake, on its property, to serve as a retention pond and heat exchanger. It has no outlet. (It doesn't overflow because as a heat exchanger for the plant it is constantly evaporating, even in a ND January.) EPA wanted to regulate an unnatural body of water with no outlets.

CPP? The initial plan said ND had to cut CO2 by 11%. The State and the generators in it said that could be achieved and went to work on a plan. When the final CPP from EPA came it said 45% cut. EPA gave no indication that massive change was coming. There is no technology today that can achieve that. That's bait-and-switch.

In both cases, EPA would've caused viable plants in ND to close and many jobs lost.

And one more knock on the CPP? ND does not get to take credit (on CO2 reduction) for any alternative energy installed prior to 1/1/2013. Did I mention all the wind energy that went in before 2013? The EPA ignores all those wind farms when it does its calculations.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

< welcome to the extended play rant >

I know of one power cooperative out here that spent half a billion dollars ($500,000,000.00) on scrubber technology on their plant. Only two places on earth have tech that good. Yet, that plant might be forced to shutter under CPP. Those owners (wait, it's a coop, so those MEMBERS, people like you and me) will be stuck with that mortgage and the cost of building some new type of generation.

And why did that coop build a coal plant in the first place? Because Congress and the EPA encouraged coal (over natural gas) electricity generation 30-40 years ago. And the lifetime of a plant is 60 years-ish. So they changed the rules mid-game. Another bait-and-switch.

So yeah, some folks may have a hard spot with the EPA.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

What does "regulate" mean? Does it mean that the plant can't put any materials in it, or that it needs to be closely monitored and make sure that it does not make it into the rest of the water system? There are many areas that very dirty water is regulated but the main focus is to keep it from going anywhere. Seems to me, the EPA should have the power to make sure that the body of water doesn't go anywhere for any reason.

Here's ND's page- https://www3.epa.gov/airquality/cpptoolbox/north-dakota.pdf

When I read that- it seems to imply that there's some agreement between the EPA and ND. And the windmills are being taken into account- you see the projection from 2012 to 2020 as a reduction.

It's hard to say there was actual bait and switch without knowing what went on between the original plan and the actual plan- but that increase was noted in the rule.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

I used the term despicable yesterday. I was asked why. I answered:



The American public has seen this pattern for 24 years, or is it more like 40 to those who recognize her from Watergate committee staffer days. That continual swirl of "is there, isn't there, why doesn't she come clean" noise about Mrs. Clinton, much of it fabricated, some of it of her own doing, has worn some folks out. A lifelong Democrat I know has told me they won't be voting for her because her history says she'll create another avoidable mess of her own doing in office (and end up harming the Ds) and he's had enough. Anecdotal? Definitely. But it's out there.

Unfortunately, too many believe there is only one alternative.

I guarantee they don't know anything about hillary's email other than some highly inaccurate memes they've seen shared on facebook. Doubt they even knew about the 'sniper fire' bullsh*t or have heard anything about 'missing billing records'. I guarantee they can't say WHY they hate her. They just do, because they've been told she is bad.

My wife's 85 year old grandfather (who lives in Florida) voted for Obama at least once, maybe twice, but now he doesn't like him and he says his worst fear is Hillary will be like an Obama 3rd term. Why? He went from voting for Obama and he saying he thinks he is doing the best he can with Republicans obstructing everything he tries to do to having Hillary being a 3rd Obama term as the big fear that could keep him from voting for her. He thinks Trump "might be okay domestically but would be a disaster for international relations". I think he might actually pull the lever for Hillary in the end, but the fact that he is even conflicted about this blows my mind considering I used to consider him a reasonable guy politically -- could vote R or D but didn't like anyone too extreme on either end (but kind of a fossil when it came to social things like same sex marriage, but in the end didn't really give that much of a **** about it and wouldn't let a candidate's stance on that affect his vote). His youngest son reenlisted in the Army 9 years ago or so (he had done some time out of high school during the first Gulf War, but then left the military for a while), and I've seen him go from a reasonably moderate guy that used to talk about Austin, TX as an "oasis of liberalism" (like it was a good thing) when he was stationed in Texas to a guy that openly bashes Obama on Facebook (despite being active military). I'm pretty sure he's the one that convinced his father that Obama is a bad president. Trump could murder a child on live TV and Hillary could cure cancer, and I'm pretty sure he would still hate Hillary.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

< welcome to the extended play rant >

I know of one power cooperative out here that spent half a billion dollars ($500,000,000.00) on scrubber technology on their plant. Only two places on earth have tech that good. Yet, that plant might be forced to shutter under CPP. Those owners (wait, it's a coop, so those MEMBERS, people like you and me) will be stuck with that mortgage and the cost of building some new type of generation.

And why did that coop build a coal plant in the first place? Because Congress and the EPA encouraged coal (over natural gas) electricity generation 30-40 years ago. And the lifetime of a plant is 60 years-ish. So they changed the rules mid-game. Another bait-and-switch.

So yeah, some folks may have a hard spot with the EPA.

FWIW, the 60 year plan would put that plant off line roughly 2030, when the CPP is supposed to be fully on.

None the less- is that an good reason to just shut the doors on the EPA??? Really?

Seems to me that it would be better to engage them directly and find a compromise- most industries who go down that path actually get a compromise instead of an iron fist. See ECA and many of the cruise ship industry- they negotiated scrubbers instead of low sulfur fuel- so that they can keep burning the nasty bunker fuel.

You can hate them all you want- the courts consistently keep them open in the face of most challenges.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

When I read that- it seems to imply that there's some agreement between the EPA and ND. And the windmills are being taken into account- you see the projection from 2012 to 2020 as a reduction.

The agreement noted is the State saying they could meet 11% reduction by 2030.

And you make my point: They credit windmills from 2012 to 2020. Nothing before. (I misspoke/mistyped earlier when I said 2013.) Wind installs since 2012 have fallen off as they are no longer economically viable without significant Federal subsidies and tax credits.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

Seems to me that it would be better to engage them directly and find a compromise ...

Have you met the head of EPA? On this one she's not interested in anything but the agenda that drives CPP.

That's how EPA gets a bad name.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

FWIW, the 60 year plan would put that plant off line roughly 2030, when the CPP is supposed to be fully on.

None the less- is that an good reason to just shut the doors on the EPA??? Really?

The power plant shafts I think about are scheduled for 2045-ish retirement (after the aforementioned upgrades and similar and planned). But decisions have to be made today. You don't build power stations overnight.

I'm not saying shut down the EPA; I'm saying it has too much bureaucratic power, power that should be in the hands of Congress.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

PS - Cookie Monster loves the Peanut Butter Blossoms, not the Thin Mints.

Smart monster.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

The power plant shafts I think about are scheduled for 2045-ish retirement (after the aforementioned upgrades and similar and planned). But decisions have to be made today. You don't build power stations overnight.

I'm not saying shut down the EPA; I'm saying it has too much bureaucratic power, power that should be in the hands of Congress.

Congress only does politics now NOT POLICY. A point I made earlier while you were complaining about my brain. By the way, I agree. It would be WONDERFUL if Congress would do it's ****ing job. Unfortunately outside of a few lawmakers they're not bothering.

I bet they spent more money and more time on Benghazi then they did on EPA oversight and improvement. Hello? You see how ****ed up that is?

At least I got to see Elizabeth Warren was doing her job today. One of the very few.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

I guarantee they don't know anything about hillary's email other than some highly inaccurate memes they've seen shared on facebook. Doubt they even knew about the 'sniper fire' bullsh*t or have heard anything about 'missing billing records'. I guarantee they can't say WHY they hate her. They just do, because they've been told she is bad.

My wife's 85 year old grandfather (who lives in Florida) voted for Obama at least once, maybe twice, but now he doesn't like him and he says his worst fear is Hillary will be like an Obama 3rd term. Why? He went from voting for Obama and he saying he thinks he is doing the best he can with Republicans obstructing everything he tries to do to having Hillary being a 3rd Obama term as the big fear that could keep him from voting for her. He thinks Trump "might be okay domestically but would be a disaster for international relations". I think he might actually pull the lever for Hillary in the end, but the fact that he is even conflicted about this blows my mind considering I used to consider him a reasonable guy politically -- could vote R or D but didn't like anyone too extreme on either end (but kind of a fossil when it came to social things like same sex marriage, but in the end didn't really give that much of a **** about it and wouldn't let a candidate's stance on that affect his vote). His youngest son reenlisted in the Army 9 years ago or so (he had done some time out of high school during the first Gulf War, but then left the military for a while), and I've seen him go from a reasonably moderate guy that used to talk about Austin, TX as an "oasis of liberalism" (like it was a good thing) when he was stationed in Texas to a guy that openly bashes Obama on Facebook (despite being active military). I'm pretty sure he's the one that convinced his father that Obama is a bad president. Trump could murder a child on live TV and Hillary could cure cancer, and I'm pretty sure he would still hate Hillary.

A lot (but not all) of the anecdotal evidence I'm seeing of perceived irrational anti-Hillary/Obama sentiment seems to be coming from older people in the 60-80 year old sweet spot for Trump. These people IMHO have reached the age where they're having trouble keeping up with a changing society coupled with a bit of narcissism and they're drawn to Trump because he's promising a return to a time that they recognize. The Greatest Generation didn't have this nostalgia because their younger days were filled with the Great Depression and WWII. What goes hand in hand with this is that people outside of the norm (a black guy and a woman) becoming President just ain't the way things were done, darnit. They're ready to latch onto any negative story about them because its a self reinforcing narrative.

A good example was the Obama-Muslim thing. There was a poll showing an inordinate amount of people saying Obama was a Muslim, but the idea was that a lot of people answering in the affirmative didn't actually believe that, but they equated being Muslim as an insult so were happy to tag it to someone they disagreed with politically.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

Congress only does politics now NOT POLICY. A point I made earlier while you were complaining about my brain. By the way, I agree. It would be WONDERFUL if Congress would do it's ****ing job. Unfortunately outside of a few lawmakers they're not bothering.

I bet they spent more money and more time on Benghazi then they did on EPA oversight and improvement. Hello? You see how ****ed up that is?

Indeed. Touché.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

At least I got to see Elizabeth Warren was doing her job today. One of the very few.

I'm sorry Scoobs, but you've got to live up to the legend here. Please come up with a narrative that tells us how the Wells Fargo thing benefits Trump!

Don't let us down...

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

I'm sorry Scoobs, but you've got to live up to the legend here. Please come up with a narrative that tells us how the Wells Fargo thing benefits Trump!

Don't let us down...

Hillary takes campaign money from Wall Street. Duh.

 

[aparch]

At least I got to see Elizabeth Warren was doing her job today. One of the very few.

It's a shame it won't amount to anything other than grandstanding because the Republican led Congress is too busy trying to either a) get the hell out of DC for the next six weeks or b) opening their umpteenth investigation into Hillary or Obamacare.

 

[joecct]

Hillary takes campaign money from Wall Street. Duh.

LOTS of money from the monied!

Though I did like the Colin Powell quip that a college paid HRC so much that the college couldn't get pay his speaking fee and they had to cancel.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

I guarantee they don't know anything about hillary's email other than some highly inaccurate memes they've seen shared on facebook. Doubt they even knew about the 'sniper fire' bullsh*t or have heard anything about 'missing billing records'. I guarantee they can't say WHY they hate her. They just do, because they've been told she is bad.

My wife's 85 year old grandfather (who lives in Florida) voted for Obama at least once, maybe twice, but now he doesn't like him and he says his worst fear is Hillary will be like an Obama 3rd term. Why? He went from voting for Obama and he saying he thinks he is doing the best he can with Republicans obstructing everything he tries to do to having Hillary being a 3rd Obama term as the big fear that could keep him from voting for her. He thinks Trump "might be okay domestically but would be a disaster for international relations". I think he might actually pull the lever for Hillary in the end, but the fact that he is even conflicted about this blows my mind considering I used to consider him a reasonable guy politically -- could vote R or D but didn't like anyone too extreme on either end (but kind of a fossil when it came to social things like same sex marriage, but in the end didn't really give that much of a **** about it and wouldn't let a candidate's stance on that affect his vote). His youngest son reenlisted in the Army 9 years ago or so (he had done some time out of high school during the first Gulf War, but then left the military for a while), and I've seen him go from a reasonably moderate guy that used to talk about Austin, TX as an "oasis of liberalism" (like it was a good thing) when he was stationed in Texas to a guy that openly bashes Obama on Facebook (despite being active military). I'm pretty sure he's the one that convinced his father that Obama is a bad president. Trump could murder a child on live TV and Hillary could cure cancer, and I'm pretty sure he would still hate Hillary.

My dad is similar...only more extreme. He used to LOVE Hillary, he only liked Bill because of Hillary. I am pretty sure he voted for Obama in '08 but has hated him almost since the inauguration. (he thinks Obama is weak and hates Israel and is a foreign policy disaster) He is an educated man (he had earned a JD) but has stopped caring about politics day to day so much of what he knows he gets from Network news. (despite being a 60s liberal for some reason he watches Faux a lot) He wont vote Drumpf but seems to ignore every scandal but is uber focused on every bad Facebook/clickbait style outrage that comes around. (The Clinton Foundation being the Big One) If I dont tell him rather quickly the truth behind the "story" it sets in and he is locked in. Even when I show him facts it doesnt matter he has made up his mind and Hillary is a criminal who he doesnt trust. Keep in mind when all the Ken Starr investigations were going on and I ripped Slick Willy for lying (as a teenager) he would get pretty heated telling me this is all a smokescreen and that tabloid BS and fake scandals were part and parcel and to pay them no mind. Meanwhile, for some ungodly reason he loves Chris Christie now...

Look if people can look at a candidate and what he or she stands for and defend their choice have at it. It is your right to vote however you want. But if you cant take the time to open up a web browser and type in a basic google search to see what is going on (or pay attention beyond the headlines on CNN) then YOU are the problem. If you just blindly believe whatever someone tells you then honestly in my mind you forfeit your right to complain. (at least to complain to me) It is like when people complain about how much they pay in taxes, get them cut, and wonder why their basic services go to crap. Guess what, if you dont want to pay your taxes there is no money to pay the plows to come out or to have more cops on patrol in your neighborhood. If you dont want to have a country that is in debt to its eyelids you cant just give the Military a blank check and cut taxes across the board...money has to come in for it to go out.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XVIII: I'm OK, You're Deplorable

Hillary takes campaign money from Wall Street. Duh.

That's pretty weak Scooby. You sure you don't have anything better than that? You're just mailing it in.