Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

[Bob Gray]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I'm not sure I get the "profound impact" on elections or our democracy.

I mean seriously, how difficult is it to figure out how to register to vote, and how little effort does it really require to do so? That's why between a quarter and one third of eligible Americans remain unregistered???? Personally, I'm going with the deadly three of laziness, apathy and stupidity. Automatic registration won't cure any of those.

And that raises another question. If you're too lazy, apathetic or stupid to even figure out how to vote in this country, do we want you voting in this country??? Those are the easy questions, people.

Agreed, although most politicians wouldn't care how lazy, apathetic, or stupid voters are as long as they put the check mark next to that Politian's name. But, yah, if people can't figure out or get around to registering, they're not likely to vote either if they were somehow automatically registered. Of course it would provide a lot of folks that would never vote who someone else could somehow try to impersonate, though we, of course, know that never happens.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I'm not sure I get the "profound impact" on elections or our democracy.

I mean seriously, how difficult is it to figure out how to register to vote, and how little effort does it really require to do so? That's why between a quarter and one third of eligible Americans remain unregistered???? Personally, I'm going with the deadly three of laziness, apathy and stupidity. Automatic registration won't cure any of those.

And that raises another question. If you're too lazy, apathetic or stupid to even figure out how to vote in this country, do we want you voting in this country??? Those are the easy questions, people.

1980 called; it wants its talking points back.

These are the same tried arguments that are trotted out whenever expanding people's access to power is proposed. "This is a private club. We don't want those people in here." Since the knuck argument is that poverty is caused by laziness, apathy and stupidity you should be consistent and demand minimum property ownership for the franchise. After all, that's what the Founders had.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I'm not sure I get the "profound impact" on elections or our democracy.

I mean seriously, how difficult is it to figure out how to register to vote, and how little effort does it really require to do so? That's why between a quarter and one third of eligible Americans remain unregistered???? Personally, I'm going with the deadly three of laziness, apathy and stupidity. Automatic registration won't cure any of those.

And that raises another question. If you're too lazy, apathetic or stupid to even figure out how to vote in this country, do we want you voting in this country??? Those are the easy questions, people.

In some places it's not as easy as you think. Just saw a story of a guy in Texas who has been voting for years. Apparently his name was changed by his parents in the early 60's and the new ID requirements in Texas require him to prove it. The paperwork proving that has been lost and he can't get registered.

Extreme case, but it happens.

Lot of case studies like that here.

http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/projects/voting_rights

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Of course it would provide a lot of folks that would never vote who someone else could somehow try to impersonate, though we, of course, know that never happens.

Actually, we do know that hardly ever happens. The GOP has been trying to cloak their new Jim Crow laws as "vote integrity" but even they and their think tanks haven't been able to find any serious voter fraud.

If we want to limit the influence of the lazy, apathetic, and stupid, let's limit the franchise by educational attainment. It would even be a wash politically: education and intelligence correlate with liberalism, but the wealth people accumulate from their education correlates with conservatism. It would sure improve the quality of the public debate.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

In some places it's not as easy as you think. Just saw a story of a guy in Texas who has been voting for years. Apparently his name was changed by his parents in the early 60's and the new ID requirements in Texas require him to prove it. The paperwork proving that has been lost and he can't get registered.

Extreme case, but it happens.

Is he white? Because if so, that's a real problem.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

1980 called; it wants its talking points back.

These are the same tried arguments that are trotted out whenever expanding people's access to power is proposed. "This is a private club. We don't want those people in here." Since the knuck argument is that poverty is caused by laziness, apathy and stupidity you should be consistent and demand minimum property ownership for the franchise. After all, that's what the Founders had.

It's a serious question. I don't care if we deem everyone automatically registered to vote. It isn't going to change the habits of those already too lazy and stupid to vote. But I mean really, how hard is it?

I've had to move a number of times in my life, which means I've had to go down to register to vote I would guess anywhere between a half dozen and dozen times in my life. It's an errand. It's like calling the cable tv company and asking them to hook up cable.

Besides, I would think this would be the last thing you guys would want. All we ever hear is how the Republican Party is dominated by lazy, ignorant voters too stupid to know they are voting against their own self interests. Isn't this going to just result in more of those voters, instead of uber-informed intelligentsia that comprise today's Democratic Party?

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Classic knuckledragger voting story was Pennsylvania in 2012. GOP house leader even declared new rules would swing the state to Mittens. Basically righties hit all the talking points while passing law that allowed you to get a free picture ID at the registry. Sounds good, right? Problem is they knew full well the DMW couldn't handle the volumes of people looking for the new approved ID, hence a clever way to suppress the vote. The courts rightfully saw right thru this nonsense and threw out the law.

A good way to judge the intentions of a law is simple. Is it effective right before an election, or does it give a couple of years and skip the next election for everybody to adjust? Generally even the SCOTUS has bounced laws that change the rules during the election year.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

In some places it's not as easy as you think. Just saw a story of a guy in Texas who has been voting for years. Apparently his name was changed by his parents in the early 60's and the new ID requirements in Texas require him to prove it. The paperwork proving that has been lost and he can't get registered.

Extreme case, but it happens.

Lot of case studies like that here.

http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/projects/voting_rights

Maybe you should take up the case. After all, both of the established parties are masters of making the ends justify the means.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Classic knuckledragger voting story was Pennsylvania in 2012. GOP house leader even declared new rules would swing the state to Mittens. Basically righties hit all the talking points while passing law that allowed you to get a free picture ID at the registry. Sounds good, right? Problem is they knew full well the DMW couldn't handle the volumes of people looking for the new approved ID, hence a clever way to suppress the vote. The courts rightfully saw right thru this nonsense and threw out the law.

A good way to judge the intentions of a law is simple. Is it effective right before an election, or does it give a couple of years and skip the next election for everybody to adjust? Generally even the SCOTUS has bounced laws that change the rules during the election year.

Voter ID laws are a bad idea anyway. If I wanted to make sure a certain candidate was elected, all I would have to do is hack the ID database the night before, suspend the IDs of everyone who I thought would vote the other way, and then when they had their ID scanned (because let's face it, just looking at it won't be good enough in order to protect against fraud, especially if they're trying to save costs and computerize everything), they wouldn't be able to vote. Then when they went to complain the next day, the computer would show that their ID is active and nothing was wrong with it, because it would have been changed back after the polls closed.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Is he white? Because if so, that's a real problem.

Unfortunately he was not white. If he were it would have been fixed.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Besides, I would think this would be the last thing you guys would want. All we ever hear is how the Republican Party is dominated by lazy, ignorant voters too stupid to know they are voting against their own self interests. Isn't this going to just result in more of those voters, instead of uber-informed intelligentsia that comprise today's Democratic Party?

No, no, no. The Republicans are dominated by highly motivated ignorant people. We just want to balance this out with our unmotivated ignorant people.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Unfortunately he was not white.

Whew. Close one.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Smart politics by Hillary. People are lazy, but try to take something away from them, even if they haven't been using it, and suddenly they start caring. Its your personal choice not to vote even though I think that's dumb. However, if you decide to participate at some point, there's only so many hoops you should have to jump through before you say W T F. I like Motor-Voter (a Clinton era law) for that reason.

This all fits into the theme of the 1% vs everybody else which is most likely what the 2016 election will be fought over. Its pretty well acknowledged that Hillary does not have her husband's unmatched political instincts. However, pushing an issue like this makes me think she and her campaign staff "get it" a lot better than they did 8 years ago.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Smart politics by Hillary. People are lazy, but try to take something away from them, even if they haven't been using it, and suddenly they start caring. Its your personal choice not to vote even though I think that's dumb. However, if you decide to participate at some point, there's only so many hoops you should have to jump through before you say W T F. I like Motor-Voter (a Clinton era law) for that reason.

This all fits into the theme of the 1% vs everybody else which is most likely what the 2016 election will be fought over. Its pretty well acknowledged that Hillary does not have her husband's unmatched political instincts. However, pushing an issue like this makes me think she and her campaign staff "get it" a lot better than they did 8 years ago.

She's freer to craft a positive message this time. Last time was too soon after her Iraq vote, which was her sole important public political act at that time. This time her mistake (really, her cowardice, since I assume she knew it was a mistake but didn't have the guts to oppose it in the face of War Fever) is only a small part of her political record, which otherwise is excellent (she was a far better Secretary of State than I thought she would be). This time she has the initiative and her people are doing a good job creating a positive, aggressive persona.

The GOP knows she's very vulnerable if you push her onto defense, because then her natural arrogance and entitlement come out and she looks like a spoiled, defensive child. They will throw everything at her hoping something sticks, from real stuff like her finances to completely made up sht like BENGHAZI!!!1!! She need a running mate who looks good bashing back those attacks, because she has to stay on message and off defense.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

It's a serious question. I don't care if we deem everyone automatically registered to vote. It isn't going to change the habits of those already too lazy and stupid to vote. But I mean really, how hard is it?

I've had to move a number of times in my life, which means I've had to go down to register to vote I would guess anywhere between a half dozen and dozen times in my life. It's an errand. It's like calling the cable tv company and asking them to hook up cable.

Besides, I would think this would be the last thing you guys would want. All we ever hear is how the Republican Party is dominated by lazy, ignorant voters too stupid to know they are voting against their own self interests. Isn't this going to just result in more of those voters, instead of uber-informed intelligentsia that comprise today's Democratic Party?

It is easy. But, we live in a nation where easy isn't easy enough.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

She's freer to craft a positive message this time. Last time was too soon after her Iraq vote, which was her sole important public political act at that time. This time her mistake (really, her cowardice, since I assume she knew it was a mistake but didn't have the guts to oppose it in the face of War Fever) is only a small part of her political record, which otherwise is excellent (she was a far better Secretary of State than I thought she would be). This time she has the initiative and her people are doing a good job creating a positive, aggressive persona.

The GOP knows she's very vulnerable if you push her onto defense, because then her natural arrogance and entitlement come out and she looks like a spoiled, defensive child. They will throw everything at her hoping something sticks, from real stuff like her finances to completely made up sht like BENGHAZI!!!1!! She need a running mate who looks good bashing back those attacks, because she has to stay on message and off defense.

Lets hope she pulls an anti-Al Gore and makes use of her husband's popularity. If you're one of the mental midgets from Cruz to Graham to whoever, do you really want Bill Clinton arguing his wife's record vs yours in a major speech? Recall what he did to Mittens at the convention in 2012 and we're all still unsure about how much he even likes Obama.

I'm more than happy to see a campaign on foreign policy. Every GOP candidate not named Rand Paul is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The majority of Republicans still think Iraq was a good idea. The majority of the electorate doesn't. The best they can hope for is planting the false memory that Iraq was a swell place in 2008 until the US started drawing down troops, but that's an easy argument to refute because the question becomes "do you want to see US troops back in Iraq fighting their war for them". Again, aside from Rand Paul, nobody has given a good answer to that question and Aqua Buddha isn't going to be the nominee this time around.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I agree about Bill. He's the only successful living ex-president and he's still very popular. He's also another distraction for the howler monkeys to start screeching about, and really the GOP Noise Machine is the Democrats' best friend in the public debate. Every time they open their drooling maws and deliver another hur-da-hur Huckabee line about high school girls or gays or rape they repel and disgust ordinary voters and do the Dems' work for them.

Bill may also peel off a few percent of the GOP's massive advantage among the elderly, who while they're dying off also vote religiously. Not sure where the GOP is going to get replacement voters. We're not making racists anymore, and our assembly lines have all but discontinued the homophobes too. There are young evangelicals, but their numbers are way down from the 90s despite their leporine breeding habits.

 

[geezer]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I'm not sure I get the "profound impact" on elections or our democracy.

I mean seriously, how difficult is it to figure out how to register to vote, and how little effort does it really require to do so? That's why between a quarter and one third of eligible Americans remain unregistered???? Personally, I'm going with the deadly three of laziness, apathy and stupidity. Automatic registration won't cure any of those.

And that raises another question. If you're too lazy, apathetic or stupid to even figure out how to vote in this country, do we want you voting in this country??? Those are the easy questions, people.

1980 called; it wants its talking points back.

These are the same tried arguments that are trotted out whenever expanding people's access to power is proposed. "This is a private club. We don't want those people in here." Since the knuck argument is that poverty is caused by laziness, apathy and stupidity you should be consistent and demand minimum property ownership for the franchise. After all, that's what the Founders had.

Let's be honest here Kepler, you willfully missed the whole point by a country mile just for an excuse to drag out the same tried arguments about class warfare, or racism, or something proven evil about regular people. None of this has anything to do with the post you responded to.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

And you're nitpicking a rhetorical remark to negate the remainder of a very valid counterpoint and broader reaching criticism. OP had a baby blanket term for that.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Let's be honest here Kepler, you willfully missed the whole point by a country mile just for an excuse to drag out the same tried arguments about class warfare, or racism, or something proven evil about regular people. None of this has anything to do with the post you responded to.

Not at all. The very "point" Hovey attempts to make dissolves when you draw out its consequences. Minds dulled by decades of repetition of Rush radio may not grasp that, but the rest of us do.