Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

[Rover]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

This is ridiculous:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/26/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-arena/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I don't know when cities are going to learn that taxpayer funded arenas don't pay for themselves. All those hucksters who sold us supply side economics 30 years ago now work the for the sports arena industry. If you already have an arena, how the hell is a new one going to generate a billion dollars in additional revenue? Gimme a break.

 

[mookie1995]

Pittsburgh also has the Pirates...

Thank you! Another draw (there were as many Buccos fans in DC this week as gnats fans).

 

[jmh]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Does Detroit have an equiv of cmu?

I meant to bring this up yesterday - Pittsburgh has a couple of major institutions within city limits in CMU and Pitt that are well ahead of anything Detroit has to offer, giving it a big advantage in developing new businesses. Detroit would be much better off if UM were in the city instead of 40 miles away.

A big difference is that Pittsburgh is a much smaller city. At its peak there were only 600K+ Yinzers running around while Detroit had 1.8M. Now its 750K vs about 300K. Its a little easier to find jobs for a much smaller population. Its also 55 square miles of land vs the 148 that Detroit has to cover, hence less strain on services.

The sprawling size of Detroit is definitely an issue as well.

 

[mookie1995]

A big difference is that Pittsburgh is a much smaller city......

Pitt persons per sq mile 5.521.4
DET persons per sq mile 5,144.3

 

[Rover]

Pitt persons per sq mile 5.521.4
DET persons per sq mile 5,144.3

Ummm....so what? Covering 148 miles is more expensive than covering 55.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

This is ridiculous:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/26/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-arena/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I don't know when cities are going to learn that taxpayer funded arenas don't pay for themselves. All those hucksters who sold us supply side economics 30 years ago now work the for the sports arena industry. If you already have an arena, how the hell is a new one going to generate a billion dollars in additional revenue? Gimme a break.

I can't speak to the rest of the country, but around here most of the Republicans have voted against public financing for stadiums. Target Field was built by Hennepin County, split along a mostly party-line vote within the Hennepin County Board, with one Dem joining all of the Repubs in voting against it. The new Vikings stadium, whatever it will be called, couldn't get passed for 20 years, always being blocked by a parade of Repub governors and Jesse Ventura. Mark Dayton (D) gets into office in the last election, and within two years the Vikings have a stadium bill passed.

I don't like government built stadiums for pro teams. We're giving millions to billionaire owners and their millionaire employees.

 

[Rover]

I can't speak to the rest of the country, but around here most of the Republicans have voted against public financing for stadiums. Target Field was built by Hennepin County, split along a mostly party-line vote within the Hennepin County Board, with one Dem joining all of the Repubs in voting against it. The new Vikings stadium, whatever it will be called, couldn't get passed for 20 years, always being blocked by a parade of Repub governors and Jesse Ventura. Mark Dayton (D) gets into office in the last election, and within two years the Vikings have a stadium bill passed.

I don't like government built stadiums for pro teams. We're giving millions to billionaire owners and their millionaire employees.

Oddly enough I don't think its a political philosophy thing. In Michigan Snyder and Orr are on board with this. But in Mass, when Kraft threatened to move the team out of state the Dems in the legislature told him to hit the road. He decided to stay and build the stadium with his own dollars.

There are plenty of places that ponied up big bucks for sports stadiums. Baltimore & Cleveland for example. These places are sh !tholes. Maybe a one block radius around the stadium is nice, but that's it. Seems to me that money could be way better spent. Especially when you consider that its a private owner who's going to benefit. All sports, from baseball to football to hoops to hockey, are billion dollar businesses. They don't need hundreds of millions of tax dollars to build a place for their teams to play. The Red Wings aren't about to move to Hamilton if their owner doesn't get the money. While I'm not the Mass legislature's biggest fan, the Pats & Bruins paid for their own stadiums themselves, and the Sox paid for their own renevation of Fenway (B's own the arena the Celtics play in ).

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Does Detroit have an equiv of cmu?

Wayne State is one of the top 50 universities in the country in terms of enrollment, and they have the largest single-campus medical school in the country. In the last decade or so, their profile has really changed from a commuter school to a school where a lot of people live on or near campus and that has led to a lot revitalization in the Cass Corridor area of the city.

Rover is correct on city size, as well. To give some perspective, you could fit Manhattan, Boston, and San Francisco combined into the Detroit city limits. There's just way too much area to cover and the city can't afford to maintain services to all of it.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Rover is correct on city size, as well. To give some perspective, you could fit Manhattan, Boston, and San Francisco combined into the Detroit city limits. There's just way too much area to cover and the city can't afford to maintain services to all of it.

It's not much different than the five NYC boroughs combined, and Chicago and LA are both much bigger. While Chicago has its problems, it's nowhere near as bad as Detroit. I think the answer might be simpler than we'd like it to be: Detroit had two demagogic dysfunctional mayors in a row who were preoccupied (as St Clown noted) in issues that had little to do with effective city governance. One's in jail now, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

It's not much different than the five NYC boroughs combined, and Chicago and LA are both much bigger. While Chicago has its problems, it's nowhere near as bad as Detroit. I think the answer might be simpler than we'd like it to be: Detroit had two demagogic dysfunctional mayors in a row who were preoccupied (as St Clown noted) in issues that had little to do with effective city governance. One's in jail now, if I'm not mistaken.

But what are the populations of those cities? Certainly many, many times bigger than Detroit.

I disagree about the problems being as simple as blaming a mayor(Kwame Kilpatrick was obviously a disaster. Not sure who you're considering as the other one). It doesn't help, but ultimately when a city loses the type of population that Detroit has over decades, it's not going to matter much what the leadership does.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Coleman Young is obviously the other one. I think he forgot about Dennis Archer.

 

[mookie1995]

Ummm....so what? Covering 148 miles is more expensive than covering 55.

Umm so wyomings police budget is higher than new Yorks?

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Wayne State is one of the top 50 universities in the country in terms of enrollment, and they have the largest single-campus medical school in the country. In the last decade or so, their profile has really changed from a commuter school to a school where a lot of people live on or near campus and that has led to a lot revitalization in the Cass Corridor area of the city.

Yep, They have been working pretty hard to raise up the "want to live there" factor of the Cass Corridor and Midtown as well. They've even have made some nice improvements in their sports facilities as well, such as the remodeling of their baseball stadium and naming it after Ernie Harwell. They've come a long way, just a **** shame they never got nowhere with getting Ilitch to build a practice arena for the Red Wings on campus or very near to campus that they could have used as their arena.

It's not much different than the five NYC boroughs combined, and Chicago and LA are both much bigger. While Chicago has its problems, it's nowhere near as bad as Detroit. I think the answer might be simpler than we'd like it to be: Detroit had two demagogic dysfunctional mayors in a row who were preoccupied (as St Clown noted) in issues that had little to do with effective city governance. One's in jail now, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, you're forgetting about Archer, who was pretty good. Its just that he got stuck with all of the cronyism that was already entrenched from the Coleman A. Young era and realized that he didn't want to butt his head against a brick wall anymore. especially when some young energetic and well connected kid was making noise about running.

Coleman Young is obviously the other one. I think he forgot about Dennis Archer.

Coleman A. Young clanked when he walked, he was that brazen with some of the crap he got away with. Lord knows what he would have texted about.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Coleman Young was one of the original black racialists, predating even the heydays of Jackson and Sharpton. He is one of the principle reasons why the 'burbs and the city have such a clear dividing line between them, as he spent decades fostering a, "We don't need or want the whiteys up in Oakland & Macomb County" attitude.

 

[Greyeagle]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Wayne State University, or, as my MI co-workers call it, The Detroit Knife & Gun Club.

 

[sagard]

I can't speak to the rest of the country, but around here most of the Republicans have voted against public financing for stadiums. Target Field was built by Hennepin County, split along a mostly party-line vote within the Hennepin County Board, with one Dem joining all of the Repubs in voting against it. The new Vikings stadium, whatever it will be called, couldn't get passed for 20 years, always being blocked by a parade of Repub governors and Jesse Ventura. Mark Dayton (D) gets into office in the last election, and within two years the Vikings have a stadium bill passed.

I don't like government built stadiums for pro teams. We're giving millions to billionaire owners and their millionaire employees.

Had the Republicans been against the stadium it would not have passed.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/150544035.html

Sadly the Republicans care more about social issues and grandstanding vs. actually trying to save our state funds.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

It's not as if Illitch isn't putting up a significant amount of money for the new stadium though.

Second WSU is a very good school, with a very good reputation, especially in the biological sciences. And U of D is a very good school as well.

 

[aparch]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

...While I'm not the Mass legislature's biggest fan, the Pats & Bruins paid for their own stadiums themselves, and the Sox paid for their own renevation of Fenway (B's own the arena the Celtics play in ).

Re: Public Funding.

On the flip side of the debate though, is when the private owner of a team is looking to finance renovations and give a shot in the arm to the ball club only to be held hostage by his city Alderman and next door neighbors. The fight to repair Wrigley Field has been ongoing since the Ricketts family bought the team from the Chicago Tribune a few years back. This season, they announced plans for a left field video board, additional sponsorship signage, a sky-walk behind the third base side, and a brand new hotel and entertainment complex in the dirt parking lot next to Wrigley Field. The rooftop owners, local business owners, neighboring residents, and the alderman for the Lakeshore district ward all told the Ricketts to pound sand, he couldn't update a "National Historical Place such as Wrigley."

Neighboring suburb cities such as Rosemont (most serious of the bunch), Tinley Park, and all of DuPage County offered up land for the Ricketts family to build a new "Wrigley" Field and as much hotel/entertainment space as they wanted. Rosemont really pushed hard now that they have their own entertainment district right next to the Tollway and O'Hare airport.



I haven't read the latest reports of the new Wings Stadium, but I had thought the initial plan was to be paid in majority (51%+) by Ilitch with the rest coming from the State of Michigan? And by State of Michigan, I mean zero dollars coming from the City of Detroit other than any tax money the city already paid to the State? Did the financing change recently?

 

[aygwm2]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Re: Public Funding....

I haven't read the latest reports of the new Wings Stadium, but I had thought the initial plan was to be paid in majority (51%+) by Ilitch with the rest coming from the State of Michigan? And by State of Michigan, I mean zero dollars coming from the City of Detroit other than any tax money the city already paid to the State? Did the financing change recently?

Two recent articles on the Arena Project:

http://www.freep.com/article/20130724/COL06/307240120/Tom-Walsh-arena-Ilitch-Red-Wings

When asked why taxpayers and city employees should support public funds for a sports arena at a time when Detroit is bankrupt, Snyder defended the use of state-issued bonds, saying Detroit needs the tax dollars and jobs.

The arena project “should increase the tax base of the city longer term, and should increase the employment opportunities for Detroiters,” he said. “So this should create a better environment for Detroit long-term, and that will be better for all of us.”

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/index.ssf/2013/07/650_million_detroit_red_wings.html

City and state economic development officials continue to insist that the project should not be adversely affected by Detroit's bankruptcy filing.

 

[Patman]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Maybe they are interested in using Stand Your Ground as a method of population control.

How does that apply to a certain court case in Sanford, FL?

----

Re: red wings... if it can be proven that such outlays bring the requisite returns, fine... but I'm on the understanding that doesn't actually happen... yes? no?

If not, Illitch can take a hike... pride is expensive.