Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

So, as I recall, the Silverdome was bought by a Canadian businessman four years ago. Looking up the stories, it turns out the roof collapsed this past winter on a windy day, and the owner quickly threw together a press release, "Uh...we meant to do that! We're gonna install a new fixed roof this spring! On a structure that I paid $583,000 for, that was never engineered to support a fixed roof!"

This guy and his umbrella real estate firm have other plans for the property which they aren't revealing yet, they're just gonna try to claim some insurance before they tear it down.

Tearing it down and redeveloping would not be a bad thing, as long as the guy is going to put in something that doesn't suck.

Maybe he's going to put up a hockey arena and lure the Red Wings to the 'burbs when Detroit goes bankrupt...oh wait.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

This isn't directed against Bob alone, this is just the clearest example I've seen of this lately.

Why do people who think the federal government is a bunch of incompetent imbeciles have such faith in the similarly sized bureaucracy of multi-national mega-corporations like oil companies?

We shouldn't worry about this because they will "x-ray every weld." And why do you think they do that? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Or because a federal regulation requires them to do so? And even though you think federal regulators are worthless, the oil companies nevertheless abide by those regulations in all aspects? They won't perform shoddy work at the lowest possible price?

Am I the only one seeing a logical misstep here?

As someone who manages projects that involve x-ray inspections of pipe welds, these people take it very seriously. More often than not, a project manager will authorize x-ray inspections even when it's not required. The mechanical integrity team who is in charge of x-ray inspections is always on the ball and informs the PMs or engineers whether or not it's required and to what extent. They will have no problem going up the ladder if necessary to ensure the x-rays are performed (if necessary). But they've never had to as far as I can tell because we all know the implications and don't think twice about authorizing it. The only question I usually have is, "How much is it going to cost?" and that's only to figure out how I'm going to fit it in my budget.

On a recent project (not mine, but I was part of the construction for a few weeks), there was a number of debates on what was necessary to make sure the piping installed was safe. It involved a number of horribly dangerous chemicals. Chemicals that give most people pause when they enter an area where they are used. I mention this project because they were so concerned about the right bolts being used, they special ordered everything with a specific color in mind to make inspections easier and to ensure they could stand up the stress and chemical attack over the life of the asset. In addition, they paid for chemical engineers (including me) to walk around and inspect every bolt on the project and make sure they were torqued to spec.

I recently performed a number of relief valve calculations and spent spent over a week double checking every step. No dangerous chemicals here, just water and steam. But I wanted to make sure every step of the calculations were understood properly and were performed correctly.

It isn't about doing this out of the goodness of our hearts, it's because we know that our equipment could kill someone if it's not engineered an installed properly.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

It isn't about doing this out of the goodness of our hearts, it's because we know that our equipment could kill someone if it's not engineered an installed properly.

Hmm - thought I had another relevant post to this point, but it doesn't seem to be here. Wonder what happened to it? Anyway, this. For better or worse, the civil liability from accidents is far worse than any regulatory penalties. Companies that stay in business are the ones that take safety seriously.

 

[aparch]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Dx, did you actually inspect every bolt, or did you just perform the (at least for building and highway construction) 10% check that Quality Assurance performs, unless a problem is found?

Interesting to read the scrutiny performed, where on my side it seems so much more lax than it should be.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Dx, did you actually inspect every bolt, or did you just perform the (at least for building and highway construction) 10% check that Quality Assurance performs, unless a problem is found?

Interesting to read the scrutiny performed, where on my side it seems so much more lax than it should be.

I'm sure this stuff varies a lot from industry to industry.

I know for the pipeline I was referencing before, it wasn't a spot check, but every weld on the entire pipeline, which ran hundreds of miles. If people aren't around these fields, they don't realize that construction techniques, inspection requirements, etc. are eons beyond where they used to be. Most accidents (San Bruno, etc.) are on very old pipe from a time when requirements were much more lax and you literally couldn't do the level of inspections you do now due to technological evolvement in recent decades.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

I'm sure this stuff varies a lot from industry to industry.

I know for the pipeline I was referencing before, it wasn't a spot check, but every weld on the entire pipeline, which ran hundreds of miles. If people aren't around these fields, they don't realize that construction techniques, inspection requirements, etc. are eons beyond where they used to be. Most accidents (San Bruno, etc.) are on very old pipe from a time when requirements were much more lax and you literally couldn't do the level of inspections you do now due to technological evolvement in recent decades.

I worked on a project where every pipe weld was not only x-rayed but thermally stress relieved to avoid chloride stress corrosion cracking. But that was a nuke plant.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Dx, did you actually inspect every bolt, or did you just perform the (at least for building and highway construction) 10% check that Quality Assurance performs, unless a problem is found?

Interesting to read the scrutiny performed, where on my side it seems so much more lax than it should be.

Every bolt. With a paint pen. Actually many paint pens. I can't even begin to tell you how many bolts there are on a $90 million chemical process. We had to verify:
1. The bolt specification stamped on the end
2. The proper thread engagement
3. The bolts torqued in the proper pattern (at least three times around each flange)
4. The bolts retorqued on PTFE-lined piping

We did this as a concession because even though bolts were being torqued to spec, they were somehow coming loose and that's not acceptable for a process as dangerous as this one was. The instance of having an engineering check all of the bolts specs, torquing, and retorquing is not common.

I will say that normally, even on water piping (!), we "pound the bolts" to ensure they are torqued to final specs properly. Our mechanical integrity group is in charge of this and every bolt is marked with a blue-green "X". PTFE-lined pipes have their bolts pounded twice since the gaskets can "flow" (move around creating a weak point in the seal). Every pressurized line gets a full pressure test. All welders are tested regularly and new welders are required to pass a test before their pipes can be put into service. All "lethal-service" lines get extra scrutiny.

We also do an in-service leak check for most "non-dangerous" chemicals. For dangerous or particularly hazardous chemicals, beyond the pressure test and water leak check, and I've seen where they do a low-temp, low-pressure test with the live chemical and have trained personnel suit up using a highly sensitive "sniff" test to make sure there isn't a leak.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Hmm - thought I had another relevant post to this point, but it doesn't seem to be here. Wonder what happened to it? Anyway, this. For better or worse, the civil liability from accidents is far worse than any regulatory penalties. Companies that stay in business are the ones that take safety seriously.

And it's not just the liability or penalties, which are important, but it's living with the fact that you designed something that injured or killed something. That's far, FAR worse than anything someone else could impose on me.

 

[Rover]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...ba0b36-040b-11e3-bfc5-406b928603b2_story.html

 

[Priceless]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...ba0b36-040b-11e3-bfc5-406b928603b2_story.html

They were just putting on a cool show for the neighbors. And those who live a few dozen miles away.

 

[joecct]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Bailout #1
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-direct-100m-grants-help-broke-detroit-000259669.html

Think it will work?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Bailout #1
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-direct-100m-grants-help-broke-detroit-000259669.html

Think it will work?

DETROIT (AP) — The U.S. government directed more than $100 million in grants Thursday to help bankrupt Detroit tear down vacant buildings and spur job growth, but the help falls far short of the wider bailout some city lea

ders had sought.

Gene Sperling, chief economic adviser to President Barack Obama, said the administration scrounged through the federal budget and found untapped money that "either had not flowed or had not gotten out or not directed to the top priorities for Detroit."

But considering the Motor City is at least $18 billion in debt, it will take a far larger infusion of cash or historic deals with bond holders, insurance companies and other creditors to correct the problem.

That's an excellent turn of phrase there. It's about the best way to keep things downplayed nicely. $100M isn't going to do anything unless it's a perpetual thing, and even then it's going to be a little less than a single month's worth of payments.