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Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

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Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

For you out-of-staters, what 5mm isn't tell you is that the Metrodome was purposefully designed to be a sh-thole. It was meant to be put up as cheaply and efficiently as possible. From wikipedia: "One stadium official once said that all the Metrodome was designed to do was 'get fans in, let 'em see a game, and let 'em go home.'"

It was the bare minimum to keep the teams (and by the way, it was teams and not over a billion dollars to just the Vikings). It did actually generate a net positive revenue for the state. I don't doubt that for a second. But it was built for $181 million in 2016 dollars. I would have mostly supported a stadium that was financed in partnership with the ownership if it cost $181 million like TCF Bank Stadium. But one thing that TCF has going for it that the professionals don't have is that it's a stadium for a public school. The profits are funneled to a man who was told by a New Jersey judge who found him liable for racketeering and fraud that it was one of the worst she had seen. IN NEW JERSEY!

But that's not what happened. We forked over a billion dollars and Zygi will have paid virtually nothing himself after the naming rights were sold (we didn't see a penny of that). We built a modern day palace and handed the keys over a convicted mobster.

ETA: I'm not convinced 5mm isn't Rick Spielman or one of the other Vikings execs. Didn't he say a number of years ago he worked in the South Metro and feared getting shot on his way to work on 494?
 
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Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

The State of MN didn't believe the RSM study. The body politic used it to sell the public on keeping the team because they're trying to use our money to buy our votes for re-election.

Of course, not true. What does the state not believe? $33 million in public funds or an annual tax return from the Vikings alone of $20 million? Please show evidence.
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

Of course, not true. What does the state not believe? $33 million in public funds or an annual tax return from the Vikings alone of $20 million? Please show evidence.

I was about to say that you're just being intentionally obtuse, but then I realized that you're really just doing an excellent job of trolling me and dx.
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

I don't think he's trolling...

And what if a poster just keeps telling someone else they're wrong...but never produces one piece of evidence to support their case. Might that be trolling?
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

And what if a poster just keeps telling someone else they're wrong...but never produces one piece of evidence to support their case. Might that be trolling?

I literally posted like five studies. Most of them were peer reviewed and one was a peer review of peer reviewed studies. JFC...
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

I literally posted like five studies. Most of them were peer reviewed and one was a peer review of peer reviewed studies. JFC...

...which have nothing to do with the metrodome.

The metrodome is pay off is fully knowable. There was an upfront public cost. There were taxes paid. Show any anything regarding any of that. Assuming you won't do that...there's no reason to continue with this.
 
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Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

You’re right Clown, he’s trolling us.
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

Every remaining original bridge that crosses I-35W from downtown Mpls to Burnsville is being replaced over the next five years. My daily commute is pure **** right now. How many other bridge projects like that do you think could be financed with the money that went to Wilfs instead?

LOL. We're lucky we got those bridges on the docket. If Pawlenty were still in office that'd be tax cut money.
 

Mookie was at a conf “investing in the ME and investing with SWF” couple weeks ago.
Very smart big name presenters

Luckily at lunch a couple of the, sat at mookie’s table for eats and someone brought up this “product”, and nobody could understand it (which, granted can be good or bad news :) )
Mookie learned that one can buy stock in bitcoin and it is doing well. Mookie asked how bitcoin makes money to justify a stock price. Again a lot of silence?

Strange days indeed
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

The Metrodome payoff is a non-sequitur to the US Bank Stadium. The Metrodome was built on the cheap, coming in under budget at that. We built the Vikings a palace, that came in over budget, costing $1.1billion in initial building, not including interest payments on the loans. We're not going to recoup the public money spent on that stadium. It just won't happen. To think otherwise is to walk through the fields with your rose colored glasses not just on your face but glued to it.

Frankly the metrodome was exactly a sequitur and we’ve seen that stadiums can be slam dunks. Two things – first, to make money you have to benefit someone. So when we ‘line the pockets of the Wilf’s’, we line our own pockets. Its the way the world works. Second, ROI investments are not a zero sum game. If there are two positive ROI investments you’re not forced to pick one or the other – so invest in a stadium…and invest in education. And we’ll see that due to gains from this project, we’ll result in plenty more for education in the future. So let’s take a look at some numbers that are relevant to US Bank.

Stadium Lifetime - The average life of a NFL stadium is 31 years. The metrodome lasted for that. But we’ll say that it goes bad and US Bank stadium only lasts 25 years. That would be a significant outlier but not impossible.

Vikings tax – So the Vikings paid $20 million per year in 2010. So let’s assume their taxes tripled since 1982 which sounds about right, but we’ll use a terrible 2x gain for the 25 years going forward. They built US Bank stadium so they could make more money and that’s a good thing. So say their tax paid moves up to $25 million in 2018, doubling over 25 years to $50 million. That represents an average of $37 million per year over the period. You take that for 25 years and you get -$925 million. But we’re not done yet.

Events, including the super bowl - There are probably 20 to 30 events going on each year there. Each one generates quite a bit of income. What’s that worth? We’ll say zero to be conservative. Oh, but then there’s the super bowl. What’s that worth? Per CNBC, last year's Super Bowl produced a gross economic impact of $719.4 million for Arizona, according to a study from Seidman Research Institute and the School of Business at Arizona State University. OK…but we’re conservative so $500 million for the super bowl. https://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/29/super-bowl-benefits-host-city-but-by-how-much.html

Number of jobs - So the Big Build…Ryan Cos. calls the stadium project ‘the game changer’ because its spurred development throughout the east side of town. There are at least 28 major projects that have been initiated – most of them in the area surround US Bank such as IronClad, a $355m mixed-use project, with retail, residential, and the boutique Moxy Hotel. http://www.mplsbuild.com/map/ Who knows how many jobs will be created from all this development. Including all the construction projects and US Bank employees, there are thousands of jobs that are generated. Including 5,000 jobs at Wells Fargo (maybe 2,000 are incremental), we’re talking 10 k jobs maybe more. If the value of a job is $1000 a year in state tax paid, we’re talking a cool $200 million over 25 years – and that says nothing of the massive tax gains made from the spending of all these new employees.

Incremental Real estate – Now the fun part. So the average property tax paid in Hennepin is $3,000 with average home value of $250k – so let’s assume a typical condo has an average tax of $2500 in expensive Minneapolis. At that rate, a development such as Ironclad at 300 units will generate about $20 million in tax over 25 years for just the property tax on the apartments alone. And there quite many of those going in right near the stadium. Benefit there in the hundreds of millions over 25 years just for residential. And development of commercial, such as the new Wells Fargo offices and retail is probably bigger yet and also in the hundreds of millions over 25 years.

Property value increases – There is currently a swath of 120 blocks of redevelopment in East Town that is largely next to the stadium. https://www.curbed.com/2017/11/28/16709820/minneapolis-big-build-super-bowl-52 That will increase the value of properties throughout the entire east side of town. Who knows how many hundreds of millions increases in property valuations will drive over 25 years.

First, these benefits are not fully advertised…this would be a hard sell in some parts of the state because Alexandria doesn’t directly gain from this. But a rich Minneapolis bankrolls Alexandria…so this is absolutely in their best interest. Second, these numbers are back of the napkin…but as you can see, the magnitude of these numbers doesn’t even make this a question. Simple math says the pay off is in the billions of dollars in direct revenue to the state on an upfront investment of about $600 million…and this says nothing about the improvement in city quality nor the value of having a professional football team for the state. This stadium was a steal at the first shovel dig.

But if austerity and stagnation are your thing...Scott Walker has a perfect new home for you in moribund Milwaukee.
 
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Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

Mookie was at a conf “investing in the ME and investing with SWF” couple weeks ago.
Very smart big name presenters

Luckily at lunch a couple of the, sat at mookie’s table for eats and someone brought up this “product”, and nobody could understand it (which, granted can be good or bad news :) )
Mookie learned that one can buy stock in bitcoin and it is doing well. Mookie asked how bitcoin makes money to justify a stock price. Again a lot of silence?

Strange days indeed

Wwwwwwwwww------ait.

Does that mean I can short Bitcoin?
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

When selling something always LIE to the customer.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/29/...trump-tax-cuts.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Trump is wrong that “for years, they haven’t been able to get tax cuts, many, many years since Reagan.”
Trump inaccurately suggested the plan wouldn’t help the wealthy.
Trump falsely called the current plan the “biggest tax cut in the history of our country, bigger than Reagan.” (For Mr. Trump’s tax cut to exceed the Reagan cuts as a share of G.D.P., the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates it would need to cost roughly $6.8 trillion over 10 years.)
Trump falsely suggested that the stock market was previously flat.
Trump exaggerated when he said a 3.3 percent growth was the “largest increase in many years.” (The Commerce Department adjusted its estimate of G.D.P. growth to 3.3 percent in the third quarter of 2017 from a previous estimate of 3 percent. This is the largest increase in about three years, according to data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The economy grew at 3.2 percent in the first quarter of 2015 and at 5.2 percent in the third quarter of 2014, and the increase was larger than 3.3 percent in five other quarters under Mr. Obama.)

Basically Trump in his speech didn't say on thing that was true about his tax cut. Not a thing. And are Turtle Boy and Ryan correcting the record this morning? NO.
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

Mookie was at a conf “investing in the ME and investing with SWF” couple weeks ago.
Very smart big name presenters

Luckily at lunch a couple of the, sat at mookie’s table for eats and someone brought up this “product”, and nobody could understand it (which, granted can be good or bad news :) )
Mookie learned that one can buy stock in bitcoin and it is doing well. Mookie asked how bitcoin makes money to justify a stock price. Again a lot of silence?

Strange days indeed

I don't know, but have a feeling the bitcoin surge is directly related to the likelihood of the US dollar evaporating.
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

I don't know, but have a feeling the bitcoin surge is directly related to the likelihood of the US dollar evaporating.

There's a flaw in that theory. The type of people who go for Bitcoin are also the type of people who believe Dump is bringing America back.

By rights, Bitcoin should have surged during Obama when these people actually thought the End Times were upon us.
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

There's a flaw in that theory. The type of people who go for Bitcoin are also the type of people who believe Dump is bringing America back.

By rights, Bitcoin should have surged during Obama when these people actually thought the End Times were upon us.

I'm more cynical than that. They don't think he will bring America back, they think a vote for Trump is a giant "fine then, F you!" to an already failed state. In fact, among the smart Trump voters I know personally, "MAGA" is a great big joke that more than anything, is a way to poke fun at the "HOPE AND CHANGE" style slogans that have meant "More of the Same" to them in the past.
They are literally hopeless people. Trump is an amusing symbol of their discontent.
 
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Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

I'm more cynical than that. They don't think he will bring America back, they think a vote for Trump is a giant "fine then, F you!" to an already failed state.

^^^^^^^^
 
Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

I'm more cynical than that. They don't think he will bring America back, they think a vote for Trump is a giant "fine then, F you!" to an already failed state. In fact, among the smart Trump voters I know personally, "MAGA" is a great big joke that more than anything, is a way to poke fun at the "HOPE AND CHANGE" style slogans that have meant "More of the Same" to them in the past.
They are literally hopeless people. Trump is an amusing symbol of their discontent.

I know these people are out there. Supposedly the whole Pepe thing is these people -- genuine nihilists, that rarest of things.

But I still think they're posers living in Mom's basement. These guys may read Alan Moore but they aren't Alan Moore. The second the central heating switches off they're going to be wailing for all the old symbols of institutional "oppression" to save their soft behinds.

It's not the belligerence of the alt-right I mind. It's the pusillanimity.
 
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