Business, Economics, and Taxes 2: That's Why We Fight to Take the Means Back

[Russell Jaslow]

For fucks sake humanity went from the Wright Brothers to the moon in under 70 years.

I understand the overall argument being made and don't necessarily disagree, but a lot of the commentary seems like over-reactionary shrieking as a result of the current foothold MAGA has. I believe it too shall pass.

I don't know what you are trying to say. It doesn't mean people are smarter today than in ancient times. It's just that people know more today, so they can apply that extra knowledge to achieve greater things. If Ancient Rome had the knowledge and engineering of today, they probably would have gotten to the moon also.

Smarts didn't get us there. Knowledge did.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Almost none of it has to do with MAGA...none of this goes away in 3 years. Half of the stuff we are discussing now we discussed 20 years ago (after 9/11) and 50 years ago (Vietnam) and 100 years ago (post WWI into WWII) and 130 years ago (Spanish American War) just with different people.

You guys can put your head in the sand and pretend this is all about Trump if it makes you feel better. Maybe pick up a history text book though (while they still exist) and realize our society is just reliving the exact same bullshit every other society (especially Western) did and we are no more civilized than they were. Unless it was MAGA interning the Japanese, or enslaving the Blacks, subjucating/excluding the Chinese, stealing from/murdering/ethnic cleansing the Natives, decimating the American Southwest and enslaving the Mexicans...etc. I didnt realize MAGA goes back to The Founders. (Might want yo look into who is responsible for many of the things MAGA is using...it aint all conservatives and it isnt just MAGA who likes it)

The amount of time and energy it will take to get back half of what we have lost in my lifetime is astronomical and no one is willing to do it. We wont even get rid of the political theater that is the TSA. I guess that is Trumps fault too.

This. 1,000% this.

 

[Handyman]

I mean the Egyptians built the pyramids 5000 years ago without modern education or tools.

 

[MichVandal]

I mean the Egyptians built the pyramids 5000 years ago without modern education or tools.

And they had a massive wealth gap between the Pharos and the slaves that built their monuments.

 

[Slap Shot]

Almost none of it has to do with MAGA...none of this goes away in 3 years. Half of the stuff we are discussing now we discussed 20 years ago

And yet here we are no closer to Caligula now than 20 years ago.

And fuck off with the mocking commentary. I'm not some dipshit that isn't paying attention just because I'm not on board with your 'we're all completely fucked and can't come back from it" shrieking. But if you're so sure we're doomed then just quit and stfu already.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

And they had a massive wealth gap between the Pharos and the slaves that built their monuments.

And that massive gap is nowhere near the current gap between Elon Musk and myself. And he's not a Pharaoh, and I am not a slave yet.

 

[Kepler]

And yet here we are no closer to Caligula now than 20 years ago.

And fuck off with the mocking commentary. I'm not some dipshit that isn't paying attention just because I'm not on board with your 'we're all completely fucked and can't come back from it" shrieking. But if you're so sure we're doomed then just quit and stfu already.

When Handy starts mocking he has run out of valid points. He is pure ad hom when he's in a corner.

 

[Slap Shot]

I don't know what you are trying to say. It doesn't mean people are smarter today than in ancient times. It's just that people know more today, so they can apply that extra knowledge to achieve greater things. If Ancient Rome had the knowledge and engineering of today, they probably would have gotten to the moon also.

Smarts didn't get us there. Knowledge did.

My kids and most of their friends are more advanced intellectually than I and most of my friends were at the same age. They understand more about the world at large, are more self-aware, and are more equipped to challenge the status quo without question.

 

[Handyman]

And yet here we are no closer to Caligula now than 20 years ago.

And fuck off with the mocking commentary. I'm not some dipshit that isn't paying attention just because I'm not on board with your 'we're all completely fucked and can't come back from it" shrieking. But if you're so sure we're doomed then just quit and stfu already.

You make lame comments that is the response you get sorry.

And yes we are...you and Kepler might not see it but we are.

Keep your head in the sand though...

 

[Handyman]

When Handy starts mocking he has run out of valid points. He is pure ad hom when he's in a corner.

Im not in a corner and I wasnt mocking...his take is just dumb. Technological innovation means nothing when it comes to human nature. Cool we landed on the moon that is a wonderful achievement. How were Black People being treat writ large in 1969? Follow up...how were they treated in the space program for most of the years leading to that moment?

The problem isnt knowledge or education or technology the problem is people. People are barbarous and greedy and knowledge is a tool to enhance that and that was true 5000 years ago, 500 years ago, 50 years ago and now. That is the whole point, the only "evolution" is how we have made it easier to both justify and carry out atrocity. And the more we ignore that and pretend the awful crap we see now is all a blip brought to us by Trump the more likely we are to never deal with it.

Again you say it all the time "history rhymes". If we are so much more evolved as a species than our forebearers how is that possible? By all logic we should be above the evils we do...but we cant escape a generation without doing it. You can blame it on whatever you like but there is always one constant...and if we want to ever get past that (i.e. evolve) we as a collective need to own it. We all have the capacity for evil within us and it doesn't take much to stoke it. Did you ever take Psych 101?

My SO is probably closer to your thinking...she doesnt think people are evil at all but that environment is the root cause. Then again she would argue that hasnt evolved in a positive way either so its just degrees of difference I guess. But I have heard for 45 years how much more evolved we are as humans and the more of the world I see and more I study the more unbelievable that is. I get that offends your worldview but being Jewish offers a unique perspective. (As does being Black, Female, LGBTQ+...etc) Plentybof good people have no problem supporting evil things if it helps them or doesnt affect them.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

a lot of the additional information we have now is a danger, as it's just pure trash. Example, many of the videos of venezuelans celebrating the capture of Maduro were AI generated, and they're getting harder to spot. People have to understand how to use all the information we have available to us

 

[MichVandal]

And that massive gap is nowhere near the current gap between Elon Musk and myself. And he's not a Pharaoh, and I am not a slave yet.

It’s amusing that you compare yourself with a slave. Someone who owns stuff compared to someone that was actually owned by someone else. You think very low of yourself.

 

[Kepler]

Im not in a corner and I wasnt mocking...his take is just dumb. Technological innovation means nothing when it comes to human nature. Cool we landed on the moon that is a wonderful achievement. How were Black People being treat writ large in 1969? Follow up...how were they treated in the space program for most of the years leading to that moment?

I agree with you that the march of technology is not a measure of our civilizing. However, we have had a concomitant march of philosophy and ethics which you, as a student of history, are aware of. Aristotle, a brilliant mind of the 5th century BCE, saw slavery as a natural hierarchy required for a civilized world. Plato, another, advocated for a totalitarian tyranny founded on a deliberate cynical lie as his ideal in an essay the point of which remember is to define justice (he uses the state as a first approximation arguing it's easier to see things when they are bigger).

These were the greatest minds of their period, trying sincerely to argue for the best practical (Aristotle) and moral (Plato) forms of human organization. They were a vast improvement over the chaotic violent superstition of iron age myths like the Old Testament that reigned as humanity's apex philosophical achievement prior to them. And yet, that's the best they could come up with.

Are you seriously arguing from there to Kant's Categorical Imperative or Rawls' Veil of Ignorance or god even Nozick's dumbass theory of justice as freedom from constraint is not an improvement?

The Magna Carta laid out civil protections... for nobles. The US Constitution did so for property holding white males. The UN Charter declares human rights to be universal. You deny that is progress?

We are now in a world of hypocrisy where the powerful flaunt agreed-upon norms. Yes. It sucks. BUT WE HAVE FUCKING NORMS! That's the history of the liberalization of the human species from property herded by monsters as enshrined by the law to victims oppressed by villains in contradiction to the law. That is a huge difference. And on balance the lot of people is better, and not just because of technology and prosperity.

The problem isnt knowledge or education or technology the problem is people. People are barbarous and greedy and knowledge is a tool to enhance that and that was true 5000 years ago, 500 years ago, 50 years ago and now. That is the whole point, the only "evolution" is how we have made it easier to both justify and carry out atrocity. And the more we ignore that and pretend the awful crap we see now is all a blip brought to us by Trump the more likely we are to never deal with it.

The problem is we evolved from a species that is territorial and violent. If you look at the behavior of great apes the behavior of Dump and Musk and Maduro and Kim and Putin makes perfect sense. They are still apes. There will always be apes among us. But I believe, and okay that is my faith, that the ratio of humans increases fractionally with every new litter of murder monkeys. I see wonderful people all the time. I don't think they existed on the banks of the Nile or the Euphrates. We are getting better. No, not in the backwaters. The promising kids in every generation get off the farm and go to the city, and there they are exposed to cosmopolitan variety and they shed the racist, sexist, religious bigotry their parents drilled into them. Civitas and civilization are from the same root on purpose. There are shits among people, yes, but each year a few less. Education helps, but what really helps is voting with your feet and just getting the fuck away from the Idiocy of Hooterville.

Again you say it all the time "history rhymes". If we are so much more evolved as a species than our forebearers how is that possible? By all logic we should be above the evils we do...but we cant escape a generation without doing it. You can blame it on whatever you like but there is always one constant...and if we want to ever get past that (i.e. evolve) we as a collective need to own it. We all have the capacity for evil within us and it doesn't take much to stoke it. Did you ever take Psych 101?

This is the historical and anthropological equivalent of Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise.

Handy, 10 miles above Cape Kennedy: "This is stupid, guys. We still aren't there so we'll never get there. I'm calling it."

My SO is probably closer to your thinking...she doesnt think people are evil at all but that environment is the root cause.

Your SO is wrong. There are people who suck shit, right from the womb on. It aint environment with them, the silicon chip inside their head is defective.

Second generation wealth are evil because of environment.

First generation wealth are monsters.

I get that offends your worldview but being Jewish offers a unique perspective. (As does being Black, Female, LGBTQ+...etc) Plentybof good people have no problem supporting evil things if it helps them or doesnt affect them.

This does not offend my worldview. Different perspective always bring new insights.

You once more defend your title as champion in confidently telling me what I believe.

I'm over arguing this crap as the world burns. "We fight and the clown gets the girl, how's that work?" Whatever you say from now on, I am agreeing 100% as long as we do things. You can do them while muttering it won't matter and I'll do them while braying about The Ascent of Man, but as long as shit gets done.

 

[Slap Shot]

I didn't imply technological advancements are the sole measuring stick, it was just an example. Anyone not just looking for a fight would have understood that.

 

[rufus]

Feudal societies had norms too.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

It’s amusing that you compare yourself with a slave. Someone who owns stuff compared to someone that was actually owned by someone else. You think very low of yourself.

How am I comparing myself to a slave? I would readily acknowledge that I am nowhere close to a an actual slave of that time. Does not mitigate the fact that the gap is way wider now than it was then. It's not even close.

 

[MichVandal]

How am I comparing myself to a slave? I would readily acknowledge that I am nowhere close to a an actual slave of that time. Does not mitigate the fact that the gap is way wider now than it was then. It's not even close.

So you claim to not compare you to a slave and then double down on it. Got it.

Slaves had nothing. You have something. Therefore you are closer to Elmo than a slave is to a pharaoh. And you are right, it isn’t even close.

Unless you have actual numbers to go with that wild claim. It IS bad now, I agree. But it has been worse.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

So you claim to not compare you to a slave and then double down on it. Got it.

Slaves had nothing. You have something. Therefore you are closer to Elmo than a slave is to a pharaoh. And you are right, it isn’t even close.

Unless you have actual numbers to go with that wild claim. It IS bad now, I agree. But it has been worse.

I've thought about how I could explain my position on this forum, but I cannot, it would take a book. So, I give.

 

[MichVandal]

I've thought about how I could explain my position on this forum, but I cannot, it would take a book. So, I give.

I don’t understand how you think that a slave that not only has nothing, but is also owned by another person has anything positive relative to you. So it doesn’t even matter how rich the other person is- the slave had negative wealth. Pull your head out of your ass.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I don’t understand how you think that a slave that not only has nothing, but is also owned by another person has anything positive relative to you. So it doesn’t even matter how rich the other person is- the slave had negative wealth. Pull your head out of your ass.

So, I give and you're going to fucking triple down? **** off.