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Brown - Oops! They did it again.

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Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

I guess I still don't get why this is an issue? Sense of entitlement is the FIRST giant step toward a complacent and ultimately a losing performance.

Don't just hold tryouts at the beginning of the year, suspend/cut players mid year if they are mailing it in. If you're managing anyone anywhere, and they are not performing as you want them to, fire the ******** and hire those who will. If your boss doesn't fire you, it probably means you're handling it right.

Sticking to the original point, I don't believe any of us have any right to feel any sense of security anytime, anywhere. Despite my own career success, if I don't perform at an optimal level tomorrow, I risk being fired. Why shouldn't this happen to all adults, and yes, even adult players on a sports team which is what these young ladies are.

You say this applies to everyone, but you exclude coaches. Twenty years was enough for Digit to be entitled, since none of you would dear point a finger at her. I understand 20 years is almost a 1/4 of a person's lifetime, but so isn't 1 year a 1/4 of someone's hockey carear. So if players can be cut for performing poorly, why can't Digit, neither should be entitled to anything. And the whole "their record's your only actual reason", it's d-1 hockey, what other reasons are there?
 
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Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

Twenty years was enough for Digit to be entitled, since none of you would dear point a finger at digit.
It isn't that people don't dare, they don't feel any stock should be put in anonymous attacks on a message board. In my opinion, and it is just an opinion, it isn't the place of somebody who has had a kid on a team for a couple of weeks to decide somebody else should lose their job, which is the premise behind the start of these threads. The Murphy-Brown win/loss mark is a matter of public record. I assume she is doing the job to the best of her ability, and it isn't for me to say whether that is good enough. It is up to the powers that be, no matter how often some team "supporter" feels the need to draw attention to every loss. I view mudslinging here the same way that I do in a political campain -- it damages my opinion of the thrower far more than it does the intended target.

Kudos to every Brown Bear player that is still working hard in practice, in training, in the classroom, and in games. I hope that when they emerge from the tunnel, they are welcomed with half the fervor that has been displayed here.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

You say this applies to everyone, but you exclude coaches. Twenty years was enough for Digit to be entitled, since none of you would dear point a finger at digit. I understand 20 years is almost a 1/4 of a person's lifetime, but so isn't 1 year a 1/4 of someone's hockey carear. So if players can be cut for performing poorly, why can't Digit, neither should be entitled to anything. And the whole "their record's your only actual reason", it's d-1 hockey, what other reasons are there?

Nobody here ever said Digit couldn't be cut, but we are looking for reasons beyond the obvious (w/l record, personality on the bench). So far, we've had nothing.

Those who focus entirely on the w/l record seem to have a very superficial understanding of Ivy League Athletics. Although nominally Division I, Ivy League schools athletics departments operate in many ways more like Division III schools. Obviously, lack of athletic scholarships comes to mind here, but there are other ways as well. If you read the NCAA guides, you will find that Division I schools are supposed to be more focused on providing entertainment to the student body (thus the requirements for larger playing venues) while Division III athletics are supposed to focus more on the personal development of the student athlete. Ivy League schools have the broadest array of NCAA sports of any league, despite being smaller in student population on average than most. And most of these sports attract very few spectators. Clearly, the emphasis on larger participation indicates that winning isn't everything (no Vince Lombardi here).

If you look at the Academic Index (AI) requirements in the Ivy League, this is another indicator that there are other considerations for a program beyond wins and losses. Most people are not aware of all 3 different requirements of the AI. Most are familiar with the individual athlete requirements. Some are aware of the school requirement for an average AI score across all athletes. However, most are not familiar with the inner workings of the team AI requirements. These are set by the institutions themselves to give guidance to coaches, so they know if a set of recruited athletes will be admitted. Each school sets each team's goals separately. Harvard, for example is known to have low team AI score averages for its helmet sports and higher for other sports, while IIRC Penn seems to emphasize basketball. I have no knowledge of where Brown allows lower AI scores, but I'd be willing to bet it is not in womens hockey.

And while Ivy ADs set these AI targets, they also evaluate coaches with the understanding of where their AI stacks up against their Ivy League competitors (this stuff is published and shared within the league).

And I'm sure there are other standards that are used in evaluating coaches, in the Ivy League. I know community relations is important at some institutions and Digit does a lot for girls hockey in RI. Schools everywhere are very loathe to dismiss coaches who have a large level of personal support in the community. Look at how long Joe Paterno was able to field football teams at Penn State worse than Brown's hockey team. Oh, and BTW, they've come back to be very competitive in the past couple of years. So while Digit may be down, this doesn't mean that she has forgotten how to build a winner.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say here is that there is far more to Brown's AD's job than looking at Digit's w/l record in evaluating her performance. Those Johnny-Come-Lately parents and other nay-sayers seem to lack this perspective on what makes a good womens hockey coach at Brown and only display their shallow, short-sighted ignorance and petty win-at-all-costs mentality.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

For the record, I am not posting in defense of any specific coaches or parents, just a general comment.....but, why is it NOT okay to call for a coach to be fired. Look at every MEN'S college sport and professional sport. Bottom line is WINS and LOSSES. Heck, sometimes a team makes it deep into the playoffs, but doesn't make it to the "big game" or doesn't win that "big Bowl" and is still fired. Last night I was watching an nhl game where the fans boo-ed because the team couldn't keep the puck in the offensive zone on a PP. Why should we treat women (players or coaches) any differently? That is the "issue" I have with this forum and women's hockey in general. They are HOCKEY PLAYERS, and the girls themselves would agree with this. If they don't perform, they should be sat, benched, cut, fired, whatever the case may be.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

And the whole "their record's your only actual reason", it's d-1 hockey, what other reasons are there?
How about the development of strong student athletes who value things like the rewards of a strong work ethic? To me, this is far more important than whether some kid wins a hockey game, D-1 or not. There's no pro league for these girls. It's far more important that they become strong citizens of whereever they're from, and potential leaders for tomorrow. I'd say this is outweighs wins by about 95-5.

As a professionaly employed manager who hires college grads from time to time, I am NOT going to hire some kid with a GPA of 2.5 who can't write a decent grammatically correct sentence, perform intellectual analysis, etc., etc., just because the kid happened to have scored 100 goals (perhaps with less than 5 assists no doubt?) and led his her team to third place in the nation or whatever. NOT HAPPENING!

Give me the kid whose team didn't win a game all year, but worked her buns off fulfilling her commitment to please her coach, and who still managed a 3.0 or better, AND performed community service projects with a wholesome interest in the people she was helping. That's right, winless season, but still leading candidate for my opening.

Get it?
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

I guess I still don't get why this is an issue? Sense of entitlement is the FIRST giant step toward a complacent and ultimately a losing performance.

Don't just hold tryouts at the beginning of the year, suspend/cut players mid year if they are mailing it in. If you're managing anyone anywhere, and they are not performing as you want them to, fire the ******** and hire those who will. If your boss doesn't fire you, it probably means you're handling it right.

Sticking to the original point, I don't believe any of us have any right to feel any sense of security anytime, anywhere. Despite my own career success, if I don't perform at an optimal level tomorrow, I risk being fired. Why shouldn't this happen to all adults, and yes, even adult players on a sports team which is what these young ladies are.

Ever coached? This is a sure fire recipe for disaster. Having your players perform on eggshells doesn't work. In the workplace, I agree there is a high amount of stress, but stress in the minds of a hockey player is a performance killer. Players shouldn't feel stress, they should be relaxed. Does it guarantee success? Absolutely. It enables a player to perform to their peak. Does it guarantee wins? Nope. That's a team thing, and the challenge for any coach is getting them all on the same page. This is very difficult with varied personalities and all. The quality of the mind exceeds skill, but skill is a close second, with the right personality.

I would suspect that a timeline for success is already in place. We'll see. Also, I'm sure that an experienced coach like this, who paved the way for more scholarship opportunity, doesn't give a rats *** what people think. She wouldn't be qualified if she did.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

For the record, I am not posting in defense of any specific coaches or parents, just a general comment.....but, why is it NOT okay to call for a coach to be fired. Look at every MEN'S college sport and professional sport. Bottom line is WINS and LOSSES. Heck, sometimes a team makes it deep into the playoffs, but doesn't make it to the "big game" or doesn't win that "big Bowl" and is still fired. Last night I was watching an nhl game where the fans boo-ed because the team couldn't keep the puck in the offensive zone on a PP. Why should we treat women (players or coaches) any differently? That is the "issue" I have with this forum and women's hockey in general. They are HOCKEY PLAYERS, and the girls themselves would agree with this. If they don't perform, they should be sat, benched, cut, fired, whatever the case may be.

I think the answer as to why Ivy coaches are not immediately fired due to wins/losses is very nicely and succinctly spelled out in the post above yours by "notfromaroundhere". Ivy's are just a bit different than other D1 programs and women's hockey does not compare well with any pro sport.
 
Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

I think the answer as to why Ivy coaches are not immediately fired due to wins/losses is very nicely and succinctly spelled out in the post above yours by "notfromaroundhere". Ivy's are just a bit different than other D1 programs and women's hockey does not compare well with any pro sport.
Yeah, we get that Ivy leagues are "different". That still doesn't explain why Digit and her assistants should be kept around for another season, or five. Doesn't matter if she is doing the job to the best of her abilities or not. She has a defined role for her position, same as I do for my job and its very clear that she isn't meeting standards. She needs to go...its not a personal attack, its the truth. It seems rather hypocritical that people are saying not to point that finger at Dig when everyone here wants to point the finger at the kids saying things that are just as assumed and unproven. Who knows if another coach(ing unit) would do better, but what does Brown have to lose if they give it a try? Not much. And what to do they have to gain? A lot.

Bottom line, I guarentee that if this was your team we were talking about, you'd be wanting her to hit the road as well. And sooner rather than later.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

That's right, winless season, but still leading candidate for my opening.

Get it?
We get it. We get what you want out of it, but what about what the girls want out of it? Or does that not matter?

I have little doubt in my mind that the girls at Brown aren't well rounded students (and if there is a bad apple here and there, well, you'll find those in each and every sports program in the nation). These girls haven't been found guilty of all the things they've been accused of throughout this thread. Dig has most definitely been found guilty of a craptastic record. She should be held accountable, no?

Personally, I think we should find 800 more excuses to coddle her for 30 more seasons while we find 800 more reasons why little Janey deserved to get the boot.

If you want to talk about "student athletes" that graduate with 2.5's and can barely wright a straight sentence, why don't you go attack some football and basketball teams. Hell, half of their "student athletes" don't even graduate at all. :rolleyes:
 
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Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

... She has a defined role for her position, same as I do for my job and its very clear that she isn't meeting standards.

If she weren't meeting the standards, her superiors would be getting rid of her, same as my job and yours. We don't know what the goals and expectations of her superiors are. It could even possibly be that she's the most affordable alternative and they're keeping costs down. For whatever reason, they see no need to let her go yet. It doesn't matter what we think.
 
Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

If she weren't meeting the standards, her superiors would be getting rid of her, same as my job and yours. We don't know what the goals and expectations of her superiors are. It could even possibly be that she's the most affordable alternative and they're keeping costs down. For whatever reason, they see no need to let her go yet. It doesn't matter what we think.
Yeah, cause her record is clearly meeting standards. I don't kill patients at my job, therefore I get to keep my job. I've said it once (or twice) before and I'll say it again....Brown's athletic department should be absolutely mortified at the crap they call a hockey program.
 
Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Yeah, cause her record is clearly meeting standards. I don't kill patients at my job, therefore I get to keep my job. I've said it once (or twice) before and I'll say it again....Brown's athletic department should be absolutely mortified at the crap they call a hockey program.

I'm sure there's way more to your job than not killing patients (although I'm very glad to hear you don't kill any), and although that would probably get you fired immediately, there are other factors that could also lead to dismissal. You are apparently meeting those goals as well. Likewise, I'm sure there's more required of Digit than having a favorable win/loss record. And it would appear those factors wiegh somewhat heavily in the minds of the Athletic Department at Brown. Hence, she gets to keep her job, at least for now.
 
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Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

I'm sure there's way more to your job than not killing patients (although I'm very glad to hear you don't kill any), and although that would probably get you fired immediately, there are other factors that could also lead to dismissal. You are apparently meeting those goals as well. Likewise, I'm sure there's more required of Digit than having a favorable win/loss record. And it would appear those factors wiegh somewhat heavily in the minds of the Athletic Department at Brown. Hence, she gets to keep her job, at least for now.

Just some food for thought.

Digit herself is on record saying, "I'm here not just to develop hockey players, but to develop young women into leaders and women with confidence to succeed in life". Based on the success of some of her graduates, she appears to meet some of those goals.

Besides...Real leaders are created and found in tough times...When times are good, leaders are not really required....When times are tough, some can't hack it and quit or move on, real leaders with fortitude, stick it out and learn from it, to make them stronger down the road for the challenges in real life.

Agree with several posters, that no one other than Digit and the AD know what the objectives of the program are.
 
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Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

One thing we do at my place to keep costs down is to keep turnovers at a minimum. If the true reason that Brown is in such **** poor shape is because they have no money (as everyone seems to claim), then they should use their ivy league heads and try to find a way to cut down on player turnovers.

light bulb goes on....light bulb goes off.
 
Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Re: Point the finger at Digit? ha. no pun intended, Im sure, but funny as hell =)

Digit herself is on record saying, "I'm here not just to develop hockey players, but to develop young women into leaders and women with confidence to succeed in life".
How original....thats the basic mission statement of every college hockey team in the nation. Whens the last time you heard a coach say that they would risk character for win? Okay, besides Coach M over at UNH....
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

One thing we do at my place to keep costs down is to keep turnovers at a minimum. If the true reason that Brown is in such **** poor shape is because they have no money (as everyone seems to claim), then they should use their ivy league heads and try to find a way to cut down on player turnovers.

light bulb goes on....light bulb goes off.

Guess you don't understand the workings of FA at an Ivy. Player turnover has no aditional cost to the school. All students get the same FA considerations, totally independent of whether they are a Varsity student or not. FA is needs based, not skills based.The only cost of player turnover is that someone else loses a spot at the school, as it is now taken by yet another hockey player.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

... then they should use their ivy league heads and try to find a way to cut down on player turnovers.
In the spring of 1999, two of Minnesota's top players left the team. The event was noteworthy enough that Sid Hartman commented on program for one of the few times -- he had nothing good to say. The next year, they were national champions.

Four years ago, UMD had a number of player departures. This forum was abuzz with the meltdown in Duluth. They played in the NCAA championship game the next year and won it the year after.

It is hard to judge a program from halfway across the country. I've heard enough reports from parents over the years to know that some sources of locker room events are more reliable than others.

I understand your stance on record. After several years of mediocre to bad, Murphy still had a better record than many of her comtemporaries. If she is fired based on her record, then how many other coaches won't pass the "record" litmus test? Derraugh -- his record isn't good, what about him? I know his team is improving, but we'd have probably fired him a couple of years ago. Idalski -- lousy record. Maybe he gets a pass because he's waiting for the Lam's, but if they hadn't decided to transfer, what exactly would he be waiting for then.

It is easy to pick out the bottom teams, fire the coaches, and start over. But no matter how much coaching turnover there is, the composite record for all coaches in D-I competition is still going to be .500 the next season. There has to be better ways to evaluate coaches than scanning stats, reading forums, and listening to phone calls home from your children. I'll trust those put in place to make those evaluations to do their jobs.
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

How about the development of strong student athletes who value things like the rewards of a strong work ethic? To me, this is far more important than whether some kid wins a hockey game, D-1 or not. There's no pro league for these girls. It's far more important that they become strong citizens of whereever they're from, and potential leaders for tomorrow. I'd say this is outweighs wins by about 95-5.

So what? Now Good Citizenship is running up the score on Wins? Am I in the right thread?
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

In the spring of 1999, two of Minnesota's top players left the team. The event was noteworthy enough that Sid Hartman commented on program for one of the few times -- he had nothing good to say. The next year, they were national champions.

Hmmm....Is there a deja Vu possibility?. Two top players depart in 2009, followed by a championship in 2010 ?. Now that would be repeating history !!.

And if it works...lets get rid of the best two players at Brown. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Brown - Oops! They did it again.

And if it works...lets get rid of the best two players at Brown. :rolleyes:

Which brings this thread full circle, as one the early posts mentioned that one of the players that was not returning was last years' leading scorer. There is a good chance that one of the other eight who did not return was the second best player.
 
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