Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

[irishbridie49]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

If we are going to open up last year's discussion and the justifications, let's start with your concept that parents of players are right in venting semi-anonymously (they identify themself as a parent) on a public forum about a coaching situation in a way that reflects badly on them. I would be just fine if that poster said I am Janey's mom and I think the coach should be fired because... I would also be fine if the person who started the flame-fest didn't identify themself as a parent as this forum is all about the FANS (the fan forum) commenting on the game. However, once a self-proclaimed (never really proving it by outing her(him?)self) parent starts publically throwing their child's coach under the bus, it has many bad ramifications not only for the program, but the other players and families in that program as they have had suspicion cast upon them. And after discussion with a few others as to the identity of the suspected offending parent, the motives of the offending parent (lack of ice time) just make hockey parents all over creation cringe.

To this, I have to say for the good of the game, enough.

There is a saying, players play, coaches coach, and parents should cheer from the stands. If you don't like the team you are on, work with the organization or leave it and find another. I will admit that I have had a word with higher ups in an organization about a coach's efforts that may have contributed to that coach's removal from duties in the past. I have also had word with higher ups in another organization about things that weren't handled within the bylaws, didn't receive the time of day and chose to move hockey elsewhere. Through all of this, I've never snuck off and anonymously sniped on a public forum about either organization.

And now that my daughter is in college hockey, I view the situation as her responsibility. I am a sounding board to her, but if she ever has an issue with the coach or athletic department, it is entirely up to her as to how to address the situation. The parents receive communication and invitations to events from time to time. I thank the coach, but not living near the school decline the invitations. I have let go of the responsibility for my adult daughter's hockey career. I only wish more parents would figure out whose life they are managing. I still smile when her she and/or her team plays well although I go to great lengths not to express my bias here - (too many folks here who give me the creeps).

Yeah, the scope of my involvement in this thread has spread beyond the original anonymous parent. Primarily, it has to do with those other members who support the method of this poster publically poisoning the well from within. And yes, unfortunately, they don't get the idea of being discreet for the good of the team/game and continue to escalate the issue under the guise that any noise is good noise.

Am I schooling the parent? Yes indeed.

One last thing. I disagree that "Any parent who has supported their daughter's hockey career to the extent they get onto a D1 college team has been involved with a lot of quality hockey teams and knows when players and a team is responding to good coaching or not." Most parents, even those who played the game growing up, know little or nothing about coaching and cannot learn it from watching games. One of my favorite coaches my daughter has ever had was guy who played a little hockey, but was an excellent lax coach (championship quality). When his daughter took up the ice game, he got involved because others did not. While it was obvious that he wasn't the most sophisticated on the X's and O's of teaching ice hockey (and he admitted it up front), he had a personality on the bench that made girls want to play for him and play hard. Did he make any miracles happen? No. Did he make these girls better hockey players? Debatable. Were the girls happy with the situation? As much as their parents would allow them to be. Many families were loyal for years. Others left to go elsewhere. What I am saying here is that it isn't just the coach who determines whether the girls respond to good coaching. It is the whole environment including the expectations of the girls themselves and the families. Lots of parents have seen "bad coaching" and readily call it out to their children. It is a self fufilling prophecy when the child acts upon the negativity of the parent-coach. To the extent that the real coach can eliminate those elements from the team, they can allow their own coaching to be built upon and have their own fate in their own hands (not the parents).

You may say there is plenty of talent and perhaps Digit has not been doing her due diligence in screening families for her program and that I can fault her with. It is her team and her failings in screening families results in posters like the originator of this problem continuing to sap the energy of the girls she worked to recruit.

I thank you for your observations however and appreciate the civility of the discussion.

Self Aggrandize Much?

 

[Dad09]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Most parents, even those who played the game growing up, know little or nothing about coaching and cannot learn it from watching games.

This falls flat in two ways.

One, these are not 'most' parents. These aren't house hockey parents. These are parents who have been involved in select club and/or, school programs for many years or their daughters would not be stepping onto D1 college ice at 18 years old. They may not have ever coached. So you are probably correct in the general observation that they may know little or nothing about coaching, nor know what the fine points of being a good coach are. But they certainly can recognize the results of good coaching versus bad coaching. Believing they can't does them no credit, and also does no credit to the organizations and teams they have been involved with helped develop their daughter's skills by choosing good coaches who generated good results.

Two, these parents are the people who watch Brown play most if not all of the games in a season. They aren't applying general experience or anecdotal feedback to their opinions. They are the ones watching the evolution of team performance for better or worse across one or more seasons as players leave and new players come in. The constant is the coaching.

I don't have a direct interest in this issue nor do I watch Brown hockey. So I have been careful not to get into what my own insights might be on the coaching there. But I will address one of the themes in this thread - that Brown is limited in what they can bring in each year versus other programs. I will grant that the coach is limited to using the resources at their command. But I do know what I saw in the game I witnessed this year. There was enough Brown player talent on the ice to compete at a level the Brown team can't seem to sustain.

In closing though, two other observations:

With all due respect, you can't be serious expecting a self-identified Brown parent to give up anonymity in order to validate their right to an opinion on coaching at Brown, no matter how strident that opinion might be.

I personally believe that it is not wise to vent on a public forum like some of the parents have. They certainly have the right, but exercising it more discretely might be wise.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

What? You are going to assume hockey parents who are unhappy with their daughters coach may opt to not discuss it with other hockey people? I call BS. If you know parents on the team and they aren't complaining then they don't have any real complaints. I find IceisNice's comment that they aren't complaining informative.

Personally, a bit off topic, my daughter has done 1 Digit Camp. She liked her. I liked her. Brown is a great school. My daughter and I have had negative reactions to other college coaches. Initial impressions mean a lot. Anonymous rantings on a message board don't.

There is a difference between hockey parents in the stands who know each other and talk in confidence and anonymous folks airing dirty laundry in front of all. Everyone discusses their impressions of coaches when deciding what programs to investigate for the future. No problem there. I don't think you or I would anonymously buy dasherboard space in a rink with those comments that the coach may not appreciate.

And my daughter did 1 Digit camp back in the day as well and we share your perspective on both coach and school. Went through the recruiting cycle and heard the good, the bad, and the ugly with regards to impressions of college coaches from my daughter.

 

[bosco]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Do results not matter? Do your daughters choose a school because it seems like a good place, or do they look at the schools that are recruiting and deciding on two factors: Is this a place that I can have a great four years and Is this a place that I can be successful at hockey. I know many girls at the DI level are not looking to just play for fun and the heck of it at that level. They are all competitive and want a competitive environment. Looking back at the records of this team in the past 6 years and looking at what is taking place with production of the classes and the decline, how can we expect anything good to come out of this program anytime soon? The days of Brown being a powerhouse in the Ivy League is in the past, 4 games in 6 years in the win column. The days of them being a powerhouse in the ECAC is not even a subject, they have become the Union of years past. Thats not only the discouraging factor though, the fact that the numbers from their freshman year to their senior drop significantly seems to me like an issue with coaching and a lack of motivation from the coaches. It seems that somewhere between most of these girls sophomore and junior years they just give up. Yeah is that a player problem, possibly, but I can tell you from my daughters past that it is a direct relation to the coaching staff.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

This falls flat in two ways.

One, these are not 'most' parents. These aren't house hockey parents. These are parents who have been involved in select club and/or, school programs for many years or their daughters would not be stepping onto D1 college ice at 18 years old. They may not have ever coached. So you are probably correct in the general observation that they may know little or nothing about coaching, nor know what the fine points of being a good coach are. But they certainly can recognize the results of good coaching versus bad coaching. Believing they can't does them no credit, and also does no credit to the organizations and teams they have been involved with helped develop their daughter's skills by choosing good coaches who generated good results.

Two, these parents are the people who watch Brown play most if not all of the games in a season. They aren't applying general experience or anecdotal feedback to their opinions. They are the ones watching the evolution of team performance for better or worse across one or more seasons as players leave and new players come in. The constant is the coaching.

I don't have a direct interest in this issue nor do I watch Brown hockey. So I have been careful not to get into what my insights might be on the coaching there. One of the themes in this thread was that Brown is limited in what they can bring in each year versus other programs. I will grant that the coach is limited to using the resources at their command. But I do know what I saw in the game I witnessed this year. There was enough Brown player talent on the ice to compete at a level the Brown team can't seem to sustain.

In closing though, and with all due respect, you can't be serious expecting a self-identified Brown parent to give up anonymity in order to validate their right to an opinion on coaching at Brown, no matter how strident that opinion might be.

Not buying either of your two arguments.

There are coaches who are right for different situations. I'm going to pick on Jacque De Meres. He turned around some underperforming teams, but could never get one over the top and thus got canned a few times as a result, but always had another opportunity with another loser. Was he a good coach or a bad coach? Depends on whether you see the glass as half empty or half full. When he is hired, the glass is half empty. When he gets the team turned around the glass is half full. Some coaches are good at fixing the problem at the bottom and others are better at finishing the job at the top. A select few can take a team full cycle. Most hockey parents (house or travel) still haven't seen enough of a coach (i.e. practices and games - trust me I spent a whole year at club practices where I was the only parent in the stands) to make the evaluation. I will agree that Brown has the talent to do better than they are, but learning how win is a skill that isn't entirely a coaching thing.

With your second point, coaching isn't the only constant. Administration support of a program does show in how athletes approach the game. If you treat a program as valuable, give it scarce resources (how many tips does Digit get from admssions?) and hold high expectations of everyone, better results generally occur. Brown's womens program in its glory days had the attention and support of the administration. After a while, the novelty wore off with the administration and the program has become largely ignored (relatively speaking as compared with other athletic teams at Brown). With the Ivy League and recruiting, the AD generally dictates which teams gets how many of their limited tips in admissions. Some ADs reward successful programs with continued tips. Others use tips to rebuild programs that have gotten donor attention. Others use it to reward their buddies and pals. Generally, you can figure out which team at any Ivy League School gets the lions share of tips by its success within the league. My point here is that we don't know how much administration support Digit has gotten since the glory days and how much the devolution of the program is due to support and how much of it is Digit. These are things that the parents in the stands cannot see.

I'll give you an example from prep hockey. I used to go to the holiday tournament hosted by a certain team in the same league where my daughter played. Suddenly, one year this coach's team is dramatically better than the previous years and there are several new faces on the bench. I complimented him on the turnaround in his program and he told me that much of his success came from a change in how FA was awarded between the Boys teams that had been previously dominant in the league and the girls teams that had become doormats. When parents brought this simple matter of how the girls teams were performing to the administration, the change to FA policies were implemented resulting in much better recruiting results. While this doesn't bear directly on Ivy League Sports, it does show that there are things that are well beyond the coach's control that may be invisible to the person watching the games.

In closing, I wouldn't expect a self-identified Brown parent to give up anonymity. Get another ID where you don't name yourself as a Brown parent if you want to throw bricks. My problem is that this parent came on this board with one purpose in mind - to use the concept of being an insider to sew discontent within the program to try to affect a coaching change. I cannot support that agenda nor those who support that agenda. This isn't about Brown Hockey or Digit specifically - my relationship with Digit as stated above is that my daughter attended her camp 1 summer where I met her briefly and I my daughter and I have loose connections with a couple players (who from my understanding are fine). I just have too much respect for coaching to let this kind of stuff slide by.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

With all due respect, you can't be serious expecting a self-identified Brown parent to give up anonymity in order to validate their right to an opinion on coaching at Brown, no matter how strident that opinion might be.

Well done!

 

[Dad09]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Not buying either of your two arguments.

Most hockey parents (house or travel) still haven't seen enough of a coach (i.e. practices and games - trust me I spent a whole year at club practices where I was the only parent in the stands) to make the evaluation. I will agree that Brown has the talent to do better than they are, but learning how win is a skill that isn't entirely a coaching thing.

With your second point, coaching isn't the only constant..

First, the parents are not making this about the fine points of coaching in practices. They are venting on results. Again, these players did not come out of house or even travel as commonly understood. They came from select programs, club and school, and the parents have seen too many games played at high team and individual skill levels to claim they don't recognize a well coached team.

Second, coaching is the constant over a short span of time where the immediately available resources, the players, change at a relatively slow rate - who graduates and who comes in. I saw the level of skill this year. Running the table talent? No. You want that you have to have an administration who will give you the resources to achieve that down the line. It takes time as you noted. But enough talent is there on Brown and, I understand has been for the last few years also, to compete and take their share of games. They don't, and haven't for some years.

Again, I don't want to be drawn into particulars nor opine on a solution. But that there are issues is obvious and that the parents who are in the stands every game have more insight than those who bring minimal or anecdotal knowledge to the discussion - and I'm one - should also be acceptably obvious.

 

[hcky85]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

There is a difference between hockey parents in the stands who know each other and talk in confidence and anonymous folks airing dirty laundry in front of all.

Let me just assure you, absolutely no dirty laundry has been aired out.

 

[hcky85]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

In closing, I wouldn't expect a self-identified Brown parent to give up anonymity. Get another ID where you don't name yourself as a Brown parent if you want to throw bricks. My problem is that this parent came on this board with one purpose in mind - to use the concept of being an insider to sew discontent within the program to try to affect a coaching change.

I think that a parent came on this board to talk about their team. But the reality of what's going on with the team right now is that there's horrible coaching making a horrible atmosphere for the players on the team. If someone has a name like Brown parent, then that means they actually know what's going on. There's no problem with that.

No ones throwing bricks, people are just talking about the current circumstances at Brown. Unfortunately, only a few people are mainly responsible for these circumstances. And there's no reason to pretend that they're not.

 

[fan007]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Digitrhonda Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's obvious: Please! Take your own advice (above) that you inflicted upon us back in 2009. In an attempt to promote your own agenda, you are trying to discredit all of the valid posts and credible arguments here. If you are unhappy with the presentation and have nothing to contribute to the discussion but criticism, then "flag" all the ones you disagree with and move on.
Best wishes,
Fan007

 

[BTW67]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

OMG. I have spent very little time reading this forum this season, but somehow I don't seem to have missed anything. Didn't we have this exchange last year and the year before? I suppose that says something about Brown's results, but seriously, isn't there anything new to add?

 

[fan007]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

OMG. I have spent very little time reading this forum this season, but somehow I don't seem to have missed anything. Didn't we have this exchange last year and the year before? I suppose that says something about Brown's results, but seriously, isn't there anything new to add?

Apparently, there will be nothing new until thing's change in the coaching department. Stay tuned....

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

First, the parents are not making this about the fine points of coaching in practices. They are venting on results. Again, these players did not come out of house or even travel as commonly understood. They came from select programs, club and school, and the parents have seen too many games played at high team and individual skill levels to claim they don't recognize a well coached team.

Second, coaching is the constant over a short span of time where the immediately available resources, the players, change at a relatively slow rate - who graduates and who comes in. I saw the level of skill this year. Running the table talent? No. You want that you have to have an administration who will give you the resources to achieve that down the line. It takes time as you noted. But enough talent is there on Brown and, I understand has been for the last few years also, to compete and take their share of games. They don't, and haven't for some years.

Again, I don't want to be drawn into particulars nor opine on a solution. But that there are issues is obvious and that the parents who are in the stands every game have more insight than those who bring minimal or anecdotal knowledge to the discussion - and I'm one - should also be acceptably obvious.

First, let's correct the notion that the original parent whom I'm talking about came here to vent about the team's performance. Please re-read those threads (there were several) and understand that the parent started calling for the coach's head before the season even started. She was upset that certain players didn't make the team and that her daughter was relegated to ride the pine most of the time. To her, this was a reason to call for a coach's head. Yes, the team performed poorly giving her further ammo, but she clearly came loaded for bear before the ice for the first game hardened. That is not venting. That is a vendetta.

Lots of other folks jumped on the bandwagon, pointing out the obvious (the w/l record) and supporting this hockey parent who can't let go.

I will agree that this year's team (at least on paper although I'll accept your assessment) is more talented than last year's. Also note that it is young. So that parent who was complaining about who was cut and who was relegated to the bench, clearly was looking for a return to the less talented players (only so much ice time to go around). So a decision was made to go young and regrow the team around these players, sacrificing experience in the college game (definitely not like playing club, prep, or HS hockey) in the short term and that is reflected in what you saw on the ice. They have to learn to play the college game and how to win at the college game.

As to the support of the administration, it is quite appearant that nothing has been given to the program in terms of getting talent admitted (who would need extra help with admissions) for a number of years. I can't speak to the help necessary to land this class, but I doubt Digit even contacted a certain top player who is doing a PG year who missed out on 2 Ivies because she probably didn't have a tip to give (unlike a certain school that used its tip on another player). I can't say that this player had a liking to Brown or not, but nobody even mentioned the possibility, which tells me that Brown didn't have admission to offer. And when you don't have admissions help to offer, you don't even attempt to land the big fish. I think that speaks volume to the lack of support from the administration.

Bottom line, the poster who started this discussion last year wasn't here to lend insight based upon her knowledge of the game and what she was seeing at games that hadn't even been played yet. She was here to sabotage a coach who hadn't even gotten the girls into a season because her favorite players weren't selected for the team or put on a top line. Those who supported her in this effort (and they are still currently posting) in my book have no more class than that parent.

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

but she clearly came loaded for bear before the ice for the first game hardened.

Sorry, just wondering, am I the only one who got this? LOL

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Sorry, just wondering, am I the only one who got this? LOL

Sorry, no pun intended.

 

[bosco]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Well yet another 4-0 loss tonight to another IVY league school. That is a total of 14-0 to IVY schools in the last three games. This is the third time this year Brown has failed to score a goal in three straight games. Once again third time this year Brown has yet to score a goal in three straight games!!! Who is putting together the coaching plan, the plan of attack the PP, the PK, the lines, the game plan????? I don't believe it is the players, can we please get someone in here who knows how to produce a game plan to at least get 1 goal. Third time this year the Bears have been shut out for three games in a row...embarrassing.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

I'm gonna have to agree that emphasizing and highlighting, or harping on each and every defeat as it happens is not really productive, or necessary.

 

[bosco]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

So a decision was made to go young and regrow the team around these players, sacrificing experience in the college game (definitely not like playing club, prep, or HS hockey) in the short term and that is reflected in what you saw on the ice. They have to learn to play the college game and how to win at the college game.

This is becoming a repetitive excuse look at the records in the last six years. The Bears have won 4 IVY League games and an incredible 18 ECAC games in 6 years. In the last 12 games the bears have now been outscored 58-10. I don't care how young the talent is, there needs to be a coaching plan put in place to at least score a goal a game and not get shutout three games in a row for the third time this year. This young players coming in excuse works for a couple of years not 6 years down the line!!

 

[irishbridie49]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Let me just assure you, absolutely no dirty laundry has been aired out.

You are absolutely correct! There's not enough room on this forum for that.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Brown Bears 2010 - 2011 - Dawn of a new Era

Sorry, just wondering, am I the only one who got this? LOL

Yeah, caught that as well. Brought a smile to my face.