Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

[Rover]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

chikod,

Very well said. Parker got enamored somewhere along the way with the New Jersey Devils circa 1995 and has refused IMHO to let go of that style of play except for one year when a ridiculously talented team forced him to do so. Part of the problem with player development and enthusiasm is that (and I'm speculating here) he wants everybody to be the proverbial 3rd line checking forward, ala Pando when he got to Jersey. That may work for less talented guys, but if you got a Wilson, Kariya, Gionta, Drury, etc - you've got to let those guys do what they do best, which is put the puck in the net.

To me that's the biggest difference in BU and BC's programs. York seems to look at who he has each year after graduations/early departures/incoming recruits and then decides what style he wants to play. Parker appears to gather the team together no matter who he has and says defense first+clog the neutral zone+dump and chase. It never changes, unlike BC which one year can be crashing the net all day and then the next year trying to win 2-1 behind a solid goalie. Your Bruins example is exactly right. Sinden had it out for Gretzky and his style of play long after the NHL had amended the rules to accomodate it. I really fear the same thing here. I don't see the guy changing from what worked 30 years ago.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I can't help but think that some of the reactions by BU fans towards the program since 1998 is strongly attributed to its coincidence with the "golden era" of BC hockey. Let's say if, during this same period, BC only won 1 NC, only made 1 FF appearance, only won 2 HE titles, and had a similar overall record as BU, would the reactions/concerns from BU fans be as strong as it has been? Would the calls for changes (head coach, assistant coaches, recruiting, style of play) be as loud as it's been of late?

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Parker got enamored somewhere along the way with the New Jersey Devils circa 1995 and has refused IMHO to let go of that style of play except for one year when a ridiculously talented team forced him to do so.QUOTE]

It's like the coach who says we're going to "run the wishbone" every year even if he has a quarterback who has a rocket arm but can barely get out of his own way. You have to ADAPT your style to fit the talent you have, not FORCE your style on the players, even if they're not suited to successfully execute that style.

Sorry...so I'm trying to get to a solution here. Given the above, what are the chances that a) he will change his philosophy (don't laugh - it's just a question!), well, there really isn't a "b," is there??? It's either "adapt" or remain in the same situation. Furthermore (am I'm not living in a naive fantasy world here), what can be done to change the dynamics if a) is not possible?? I know I'm grasping at straws. And you know, at this point I don't even know how much of it is winning as much as it is at least giving the players a CHANCE to win by letting them loose. If it is NOT a talent issue, as everyone seems to be saying, then the implication is that they are being held back or not allowed to reach their potential.

 

[Boston22]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

There have been a lot of good posts here, esp by pirate. As a neutral observer, I would have to be in the "something has to be done" bandwagon, instead of the "Parker can stay as long as he wants" bandwagon. I think a change certainly needs to be made, whether it be the head coach, the head coach's style/attitude, the asst coaches, etc.

I have a feeling that Parker is going to wait for Jerry York to retire (with the all time wins record) and stay at BU until he surpasses him. Not trying to flame, but that's the feeling I get. Even if it means BU is winning 17 to 22 games a year; maybe a Beanpot; make it to the Garden for the Hockey East semis; and maybe make the NCAA's.

He always talks about how his team wasn't motivated to play on a certain night. I would think he would need to either change how he tries to motivate them, or he needs to recruit self-motivating players. Either way, some of the blame has to fall on his shoulders. Again, this is coming from an outside point of view.

 

[J.D.]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Maybe York didn't have the same results in the past because his style wasn't right for the period when Parker was the 'right man for the job'

Are you talking about when York was at Clarkson and Bowling Green? Neither one of those jobs is even close to a BC or BU. I don't see how it's comparable--and really is why I've often wondered what the scoreboard would be like if York was at BC as long as Parker has been at BU.

Not that it's going to happen but getting in on a BC loss when there's a trophy on the line would be hilarious.

Not as hilarious as North Dakota then stomping BU in the tourney...

I don't know what you mean by looking up to Merrimack...we finished ahead of them in the standings

I later acknowledged that they are still playing in the postseason and I realize they will be in the NCAA's and have a chance to make a run. Way to pick and choose what you quote me on.

I do as of now but based on the regular season alone...no we finished higher in conference and they played a much weaker Non-conf schedule so that is basically a toss-up which side of the argument you want to take and we know which side you are going to take. But ill agree with you if you agree that BC looked up to Lowell in 09...deal?

Don't complicate things. You really answered your own question. Yes, BU finished a whole one point ahead of Merrimack in the standings. Having seen both teams, Merrimack is the better team. Throw in that they are at the Garden and will be in the NCAA tourney...there's no question that this year, BU is looking up at Merrimack.

The age thing is what I was trying to get at earlier with the comments about how York didn't suddenly learn how to coach and parker didn't suddenly forget, yet their fortunes seemed to have switched...their individual styles may be suited for different times and different types of athletes. Desire to change that style could be a factor of experience vs. raw age but obviously the two are correlated. I want to be careful about getting all my info from this board but the impression I get is that both are really great from a knowledge standpoint but that York is more easy going.

Again, I really think it's only fair to compare the two since York arrived at BC. Since that time, when York first had to rebuild the program, BC and BU haven't even been close.

I can't help but think that some of the reactions by BU fans towards the program since 1998 is strongly attributed to its coincidence with the "golden era" of BC hockey. Let's say if, during this same period, BC only won 1 NC, only made 1 FF appearance, only won 2 HE titles, and had a similar overall record as BU, would the reactions/concerns from BU fans be as strong as it has been? Would the calls for changes (head coach, ***'t coaches, recruiting, style of play) be as loud as it's been of late?

I don't think it has to be about BC, although maybe it's all related. Rather than compare to what BC has done, try comparing it to what BU did in the mid '90s. I think that's what you guys want back.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I can't help but think that some of the reactions by BU fans towards the program since 1998 is strongly attributed to its coincidence with the "golden era" of BC hockey.

But you can't really separate the two, can you? The Yankees are in the Red Sox' division. If they win 95 games every year, that automatically ups the ante. If the Red Sox are going to compete, the "standard" that they are aiming for has to be higher. Unfortunately, BC IS in our back yard and, like it or not, that is who we are compared with, not to mention have to recruit against. I don't want to be accused of blasphemy, but aesthetically, as a fan of the game, I would MUCH rather watch BC play. It's like watching the USA/Canada game last year (or any of the Olympic games) vs watching the Bruins. There was a lot of talk (especially after the BB game Saturday) about how "dead" the crowd is at Agganis. Gee, I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that it's hard to yell when you are yawning?

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I don't think it has to be about BC, although maybe it's all related. Rather than compare to what BC has done, try comparing it to what BU did in the mid '90s. I think that's what you guys want back.

But again, you can't. Because we were the dominant program then; now the tables are reversed. We CAN'T get back what we had in the mid-90s, without being BETTER than BC, because they're standing in our way! Think about it. You want Hockey East titles, right? Who will you have to beat to get there? You want to get "out of the regionals," right? Who prevented that in 2006? You want to get to the Frozen Four, right? Who has been there the last three years? There's only so much room at the top...

 

[Federal League]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Parker got enamored somewhere along the way with the New Jersey Devils circa 1995 and has refused IMHO to let go of that style of play except for one year when a ridiculously talented team forced him to do so. Part of the problem with player development and enthusiasm is that (and I'm speculating here) he wants everybody to be the proverbial 3rd line checking forward, ala Pando when he got to Jersey. That may work for less talented guys, but if you got a Wilson, Kariya, Gionta, Drury, etc - you've got to let those guys do what they do best, which is put the puck in the net.

To me that's the biggest difference in BU and BC's programs. York seems to look at who he has each year after graduations/early departures/incoming recruits and then decides what style he wants to play. Parker appears to gather the team together no matter who he has and says defense first+clog the neutral zone+dump and chase. It never changes, unlike BC which one year can be crashing the net all day and then the next year trying to win 2-1 behind a solid goalie. Your Bruins example is exactly right. Sinden had it out for Gretzky and his style of play long after the NHL had amended the rules to accomodate it. I really fear the same thing here. I don't see the guy changing from what worked 30 years ago.

It's like the coach who says we're going to "run the wishbone" every year even if he has a quarterback who has a rocket arm but can barely get out of his own way. You have to ADAPT your style to fit the talent you have, not FORCE your style on the players, even if they're not suited to successfully execute that style.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Parker has changed up his systems pretty frequently and, at least from what I've seen, almost always caters to players' individual strengths. If anything, I'd almost lean in the opposite direction and say he might have to reel players in a little more. For much of this season, the power-play strategy was "Let the guys do their thing and not bog them down with any specific set-ups," and it didn't really start working until the very end of the season. Perhaps implementing a more structured power play would've produced better results. I don't know. Obviously hindsight's 20/20.

I also know that Parker is constantly on the lookout for what's working in the NHL and the Olympics in terms of strategies and schemes. I remember last year he told us about how the team looked at a bunch of NHL teams when it came to the power play. And before this season, he said they watched a few NHL teams to help everyone learn the new d-zone coverage.

I'm obviously not going to start picking sides in this Parker debate, but I just wanted to correct something that -- again, from what I've seen and heard -- is patently wrong.

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I can't help but think that some of the reactions by BU fans towards the program since 1998 is strongly attributed to its coincidence with the "golden era" of BC hockey. Let's say if, during this same period, BC only won 1 NC, only made 1 FF appearance, only won 2 HE titles, and had a similar overall record as BU, would the reactions/concerns from BU fans be as strong as it has been? Would the calls for changes (head coach, assistant coaches, recruiting, style of play) be as loud as it's been of late?

I think it's definitely a good point.

Three things I point to as a big difference between who they are recruiting.

1. Jerry gets a lot more of the good local players. Say what you will about its merits but IMO that puts a lot more loyalty into the players than say kids from outside of New England. That can help when deciding how long they should stay and they are close to their family as well so that helps keep them around for longer too.

2. Jerry gets a lot of the kids that are good college types (sometimes still gets them into the NHL) and obviously that leads to 4 year guys that keep getting better. Less turnover, smaller speedier guys that fit his system. Coachable and upside that comes out as they get older.

3. Intangibles. BC's players seemingly have a ton of intangibles. Leadership, heart, determination, etc. You've had some guys like that (PMac, Gilroy, Strait, etc) but BC has that in spades up and down the roster almost every single year. I think it's a big difference.

I think York hated seeing what happened in 2002, and while a title for 2002 is a tradeoff most will take, he learned from it big time. He doesn't go after a ton of these pro types that could be 1 and done or 2 and done but likes to mix them in with a lot of 4 year types to find the right balance so he doesn't get decimated again. Of course that could happen next year but some of the guys blew up maybe more than expected (Kreider... even Dumoulin and to an extent Wey as he was a late bloomer and a late pickup). And 2 in 3 years, possibly 3 in 4... that's well worth it. Can't argue with that.

Ask yourself if Jerry didn't bring back this program, and these Gibbons and Ferrieros had gone to BU, where you think BU would have been? Would Parker have wasted that talent or would they have done well? I'm not sure to be totally honest but I believe they would have done better than they have overall despite the moral victory banner raising from limey with the regional finalist banners and top 10 because I say so and someone had a computer model that said so too banners.

 

[J.D.]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

FL, just remember to ask Parker why they aren't practicing this week and if he knows that his team is still alive

Honest question because I can't see Parker sitting on his computer following the bracketology blog or using the PWR predictor. I wonder if each team has a designated PWR geek...

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Are you talking about when York was at Clarkson and Bowling Green? Neither one of those jobs is even close to a BC or BU. I don't see how it's comparable--and really is why I've often wondered what the scoreboard would be like if York was at BC as long as Parker has been at BU.

And he still managed to win a national title and a Penrose before getting to BC. Go figure.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

This doesn't make any sense to me. Parker has changed up his systems pretty frequently and, at least from what I've

Well it's obviously hard to argue with someone who is that close to the scene and at practice all the time; HOWEVER, the final judgment can only be made by witnessing the product on the ice. All I know is, the results aren't there. Maybe it seems as though he has "changed up his systems pretty frequently." If that's the case, then apparently it's not getting through to the players, because they don't seem to be executing any differently. You really think that the "possession" style of diging in the corners, putting two guys behind the net and trying to score back-door is the same as watching BC fly up and down the middle of the ice, make an instant transition from defense to offense and fire at the net without waiting for the perfect setup? If you do, then there's no point in continuing this discussion, because we're not only not on the same page, we're not in the same library!

 

[slurpees]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

FL, just remember to ask Parker why they aren't practicing this week and if he knows that his team is still alive

Honest question because I can't see Parker sitting on his computer following the bracketology blog or using the PWR predictor. I wonder if each team has a designated PWR geek...

I think this has more to do with the fact that BU is on spring break this week and the earliest they could potentially play a game is a week from Friday, so practice this week would be preparing for no one in particular, for a theoretical game over a week away, while the players have no class and are on campus by themselves. After thinking about it, I really don't see an issue with it, and if they were to get a second life this weekend, the week off may be a good thing to let them clear their heads a bit and try to hit the reset button, with a full week of practice ahead. I'd be surprised if Parker doesn't require them back on campus for this weekend, and start them skating on Saturday or Sunday, unless they are officially eliminated on Friday.

 

[Federal League]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Well it's obviously hard to argue with someone who is that close to the scene and at practice all the time; HOWEVER, the final judgment can only be made by witnessing the product on the ice. All I know is, the results aren't there. Maybe it seems as though he has "changed up his systems pretty frequently." If that's the case, then apparently it's not getting through to the players, because they don't seem to be executing any differently. You really think that the "possession" style of diging in the corners, putting two guys behind the net and trying to score back-door is the same as watching BC fly up and down the middle of the ice, make an instant transition from defense to offense and fire at the net without waiting for the perfect setup? If you do, then there's no point in continuing this discussion, because we're not only not on the same page, we're not in the same library!

I'm not arguing how effective his systems and changes are or if he teaches them well or if players get it or whatever. I was just pointing out that he does change them from season to season and sometimes even in-season. And I agree that their transition game was not very good this year. Whenever BU did score a goal on a nice turn up ice, breakout pass or neutral zone pass, I almost found myself saying "Wow" just because it happened so infrequently. Then you watch BC play and it seems like they get at least one or two goals like that every game.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

He doesn't go after a ton of these pro types that could be 1 and done or 2 and done but likes to mix them in with a lot of 4 year types to find the right balance so he doesn't get decimated again.

That is EXACTLY what I was saying before, but I was rebuked by someone who said that they "both" recruit the same players. I don't agree...Jerry has a "balance" while Jack doesn't. That's not to say that he doesn't TRY, but he hasn't been successful in achieving it. I also think the point about the local players is a good one; however, BU gets local players as well, so maybe BC's local players fit the system better (reminds me of the movie, "The Right Stuff," when in reference to the rocket scientists, someone said "Our Germans are better than your Germans..."). As for the question about Gibbons and Ferrieros, it depends upon how much Jack would have tried to "force" them into his system, "reighn them in" or if he would let them go. It's really a matter of how much control one decides to exert. Maybe it just comes down to the fact that Jack doesn't trust his players to create. I'm not sure I agree with FL when he says that he has to "reel them in" a little more. I think it's exactly the opposite. I absolutely think that they are "too choreographed" and that they have to be trusted to let their talent take over. If it is true that "times have changed" (rhetorical - of course it's true) and that the players don't want to hear that "if you don't do it my way you'll be working construction," then doesn't it follow that you can't "reel them in" and that you have to let them have a little fun? Does it seem as though the BC players are having more fun, or is it just my imagination (and don't say, "Of course, everyone has more fun when they're winning)? Are the UNH players or the NU players having fun? They sure seem to have more "jump" than we do...

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Maybe that didn't come across very clearly. When you stifle anyone's creativity (an artist, musician, etc) they can't produce. Now you may think that it's unrelated, but would anyone agree that any of the great athletes (Gretzky, Orr, Russell, Cousy, Bird, Magic, Mays, etc etc etc) were artists? If not, what do you think separated them from everyone else? It was their sponteneity and their ability to react without thinking. It just looks to me that the BU players are "handcuffed," particularly in the offensive zone. I saw improvement in moving the puck out of their own end and getting it through center ice, but when they get into the offensive zone they go into that cycling mode and just seem as if they are paralyzed. Of course you need a "blend" of structure and creativity - I just think the creativity part is missing.

 

[Rover]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

This doesn't make any sense to me. Parker has changed up his systems pretty frequently and, at least from what I've seen, almost always caters to players' individual strengths. If anything, I'd almost lean in the opposite direction and say he might have to reel players in a little more. For much of this season, the power-play strategy was "Let the guys do their thing and not bog them down with any specific set-ups," and it didn't really start working until the very end of the season. Perhaps implementing a more structured power play would've produced better results. I don't know. Obviously hindsight's 20/20.

I also know that Parker is constantly on the lookout for what's working in the NHL and the Olympics in terms of strategies and schemes. I remember last year he told us about how the team looked at a bunch of NHL teams when it came to the power play. And before this season, he said they watched a few NHL teams to help everyone learn the new d-zone coverage.

I'm obviously not going to start picking sides in this Parker debate, but I just wanted to correct something that -- again, from what I've seen and heard -- is patently wrong.

All due respect Federal but I have no idea what games you've been watching. As is the general consensus BU's style of play is a boring, defense first, clogged toilet style that they've employed for years. The only time I remember them getting away from that was the one year everybody came into their own and the team was packed with superstars. Even then (and I'm not complaining) but they had to eek out 3 close wins (UNH, VT, Miami) to win the title even though they were far more talented then any of those squads. I have to strongly disagree with the notion that Parker is changing with the times. I just don't see it from where I'm at.

 

[Tater]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Even then (and I'm not complaining) but they had to eek out 3 close wins (UNH, VT, Miami) to win the title even though they were far more talented then any of those squads.

Not to mention UML the game before!

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

All due respect Federal but I have no idea what games you've been watching. As is the general consensus BU's style of play is a boring, defense first, clogged toilet style that they've employed for years.

Agreed...

 

[bantam75]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I can't help but think that some of the reactions by BU fans towards the program since 1998 is strongly attributed to its coincidence with the "golden era" of BC hockey. Let's say if, during this same period, BC only won 1 NC, only made 1 FF appearance, only won 2 HE titles, and had a similar overall record as BU, would the reactions/concerns from BU fans be as strong as it has been? Would the calls for changes (head coach, assistant coaches, recruiting, style of play) be as loud as it's been of late?

Of course it is. From 1990 to 1998, BU OWNED Boston and New England/Eastern college hockey. Now we don't - not even close to what BC has achieved since 1998. But remember that prior to 1997, BC was at the bottom looking up. They were at their worst after the Steve Cedurchuk/Mike Milbury debacle from 1992-1994. York came in and took a program in total disarray and almost won the NC in 1998, in less than 4 years. So yes, to watch what York and BC has achieved for over 13 years has been very tough to watch, but even tougher because BU was #1 in the country going into that HE qrtrs vs Merrimack - lost that, than lost the next game (reg final vs UNH).

This scenario is almost the same as it was in the 60's. I have been following BU hockey since 1966 (when Parker was a Sophomore and York a Jr at BC). Until the late 60's BC owned Boston and New England college hockey. Jack Kelly in 1962 and took a BU program that had done nothing for over 10 years and turned it into one of the top 4 or 5 programs in the country. They were in the NC game against Cornell in 1967 then won back to back titles in '71 and '72 - i was forntuate to see those title games and all those great confrtontations with Cornell from 1966-1975. Prior to 1966, BC won all the Beanpots against BU, but Jack Kelly turned tht tide in '66 and it became the 'BUPot".

BC went downhill mostly because Snooks Kelly refused to recruit ANY players out of eastern Mass. Then Parker was handed a loaded team in 1973 that was now getting the best Mass players with a sprinkling of Canadians and they competed for the NC every year thru 1979, but only won once in 1978 with another stacked team, beating hated BC in the final.

I will grant you that it was inevitable that BU would slip some from the '90-'98 stretch, but the slips we saw in '99, '01 and '04 were suppose to stop with the new arena. And initially we saw a bounce back with the '06 and and '09 teams, but
> How do you explain '08, '10 and '11??
> That makes 6 teams out of the last 13 BU teams missing the NCAA all together.
> BC has made 9 FF in that period and 3 NCs and a favorite to win their 4th in 11 years.

Now, I will say something that even I find blasphemise, but for those of you who feel like me that Parker's time has come, is probably true: winning in '09 has ensured he will not be forced from the bench unless he decides to step down. The admin won't touch him now.

All I can say is that if this team does not compete as a top 5 or 6 team next year with a solid shot at the FF, then it will have underachieved again making the '08, '10 and '11 results a trend that is more likely to continue while Parker is here. Parker has to win some big games in the big show when his team is not the odds-on favorite. The last time that happened was 1997 vs Michigan in Milwaukee.

Think of this: If they had lost that game in DC vs Miami, or worse had they lost that regional final to UNH (Milan stole that game for us), what would the Parker poster supporters here and the admin be saying today???