brassbonanza
Super Serial
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
Wrong Michigan. And the Fab Five never won a title.
Wrong Michigan. And the Fab Five never won a title.
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Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
- Thread starter DaveStPaul
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Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
But I think that's exactly why he used it, to entertain the notion that once you become an "elite" program, when do you NOT remain an "elite" program? How many years do you have to stink before you are dropped from the "elite" ranks. That's why I say it's a PERCEPTION issue. We all think that these schools (NC, UCLA, Michigan State, Kanses, Kentucky, etc) are elite because that's how we REMEMBER them when they were winning titles "regularly."
That's why I said, was BC no longer "elite" when they didn't win for 52 years? No more than BU isn't elite any longer, either. I'm just saying that regardless of whether or not we are considered elite, that doesn't mean you have to win every year. And I still maintain it is going to be harder than it was. Don't you think that BC fans were getting impatient at the end of the Ceglarski era? I imagine the same thing happens everywhere. Ned Harkness won at Cornell in 1967 and 1970. How many times has Cornell won it all since? Here's a hint. It starts with "Z" and ends with "O." Are they not still an "elite" Ivy League (and NCAA in general) program? What do you think of when someone mentions Cornell? (besides nuclear physics or something) I don't know about you, but I think "hockey."
I think that any competitive person finds it difficult to give it up. If you think about it, that's why they were successful in the first place. If you aren't "driven," you'll never get anywhere in life. If you settle for less than the best, that's what you get. So nobody here is indicting Parker - we just recognize that a person like that needs to be pushed when his time is up. We're not "gloating" or "happy" about it and we have tremendous gratitude and respect for what he has accomplished. Just remember that YOU (that's a "colllective" you) will be in the same situation someday, so it is important to preserve one's dignity. So I don't agree with embarrassing him in the middle of the season. I DO think that he should be told, however, at the end of the season, that the time has come. If he can't admit it to himself, it has to be done for him. But don't think this is any different with any other accomplished person. The day I can no longer break 80 will be a very difficult one for me...because I have played golf for 47 years. It's not easy to confront the fact that you may be failing at something which was at one time effortless. It's like taking away a loved one's driver's license.
So while I agree that this has to be done, let's have a little compassion. I know many of us are angry, exasperated, etc. But really, the blame should be placed not on Jack, but on an administration who refuses to 1) recognize (apparently) and 2) confront the issue. Because you can't expect him to step down on his own. Would you??
But I think that's exactly why he used it, to entertain the notion that once you become an "elite" program, when do you NOT remain an "elite" program? How many years do you have to stink before you are dropped from the "elite" ranks. That's why I say it's a PERCEPTION issue. We all think that these schools (NC, UCLA, Michigan State, Kanses, Kentucky, etc) are elite because that's how we REMEMBER them when they were winning titles "regularly."
That's why I said, was BC no longer "elite" when they didn't win for 52 years? No more than BU isn't elite any longer, either. I'm just saying that regardless of whether or not we are considered elite, that doesn't mean you have to win every year. And I still maintain it is going to be harder than it was. Don't you think that BC fans were getting impatient at the end of the Ceglarski era? I imagine the same thing happens everywhere. Ned Harkness won at Cornell in 1967 and 1970. How many times has Cornell won it all since? Here's a hint. It starts with "Z" and ends with "O." Are they not still an "elite" Ivy League (and NCAA in general) program? What do you think of when someone mentions Cornell? (besides nuclear physics or something) I don't know about you, but I think "hockey."
I think that any competitive person finds it difficult to give it up. If you think about it, that's why they were successful in the first place. If you aren't "driven," you'll never get anywhere in life. If you settle for less than the best, that's what you get. So nobody here is indicting Parker - we just recognize that a person like that needs to be pushed when his time is up. We're not "gloating" or "happy" about it and we have tremendous gratitude and respect for what he has accomplished. Just remember that YOU (that's a "colllective" you) will be in the same situation someday, so it is important to preserve one's dignity. So I don't agree with embarrassing him in the middle of the season. I DO think that he should be told, however, at the end of the season, that the time has come. If he can't admit it to himself, it has to be done for him. But don't think this is any different with any other accomplished person. The day I can no longer break 80 will be a very difficult one for me...because I have played golf for 47 years. It's not easy to confront the fact that you may be failing at something which was at one time effortless. It's like taking away a loved one's driver's license.
So while I agree that this has to be done, let's have a little compassion. I know many of us are angry, exasperated, etc. But really, the blame should be placed not on Jack, but on an administration who refuses to 1) recognize (apparently) and 2) confront the issue. Because you can't expect him to step down on his own. Would you??
brassbonanza
Super Serial
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
At some level, I would expect him to be able to realize that he's not able to lead the program to the standard he's set over the decades he's been here, and for the good of the program he invested his life to, it's best he step aside. That said, he may not realize that as soon as others around him. My only question is, is there anyone within the department or the university as a whole who has the pull to even broach this topic with him? It's not like Lynch has been around for a long time, Brown has only been here since 05, and there isn't some other high ranking university person who has the pull, not just in title, to say to Jack, you really need to consider that the time has come.
At some level, I would expect him to be able to realize that he's not able to lead the program to the standard he's set over the decades he's been here, and for the good of the program he invested his life to, it's best he step aside. That said, he may not realize that as soon as others around him. My only question is, is there anyone within the department or the university as a whole who has the pull to even broach this topic with him? It's not like Lynch has been around for a long time, Brown has only been here since 05, and there isn't some other high ranking university person who has the pull, not just in title, to say to Jack, you really need to consider that the time has come.
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
You're right. Freudian slip. But my point is, the high VISIBILITY of these programs and their success over the years is what has made them elite. Even to the point where the perception is that they've won more than they actually have. Here's another one for you. Georgetown, with all that talent and the very visible John Thompson as the head of that program for years and years (and now his son) has won ONE championship. ONE...as many as Utah, CCNY, Holy Cross and Loyola of Chicago. And FEWER than Oklahoma A&M and Cincinnati.
Does anyone think that Oklahoma A&M is "elite?"
You're right. Freudian slip. But my point is, the high VISIBILITY of these programs and their success over the years is what has made them elite. Even to the point where the perception is that they've won more than they actually have. Here's another one for you. Georgetown, with all that talent and the very visible John Thompson as the head of that program for years and years (and now his son) has won ONE championship. ONE...as many as Utah, CCNY, Holy Cross and Loyola of Chicago. And FEWER than Oklahoma A&M and Cincinnati.
Does anyone think that Oklahoma A&M is "elite?"
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
That's not the way it works. As I mentioned last week, did Ted Kennedy "step down" for the "good of the country?" Will Menino "step down?" It doesn't work like that. When you're a legend, you think you are invincible and immortal. It's just a mind-set and it has been reinforced continuously year after year by adoring, adulating fans who are intoxicated with the success. Look at Woody Hayes? Did he "step down?" He had to punch a player on the field during a game before he was forced out. Did Joe Paterno "step down?" Did Bobby Knight step down? (even after he went off the deep end, throwing chairs and assaulting players) It's just not going to happen.
And to answer your question, NO there isn't anyone, and that's the problem. Would YOU walk up to him and tell him it's time to "move on?" Seriously...would you? If you had no authority but bumped into him on the street, would you say, "Jack, I've been a long-time supporter of the program and we have such a wonderful tradition of success, but I think you should give it up?" And did it ever occur to you that this thing that we are getting so worked up about as if it's one of the most important things in our lives is not even that important to them, given what we discussed earlier regarding the standing of "sports" at BU? If a school like Penn State can't find anyone to tell JoePa to leave, how can you expect anyone at little 'ole BU to do it? Isn't that the whole reason Mookie is telling us to flood Brownie's office with complaints (requests, whatever)? Because he knows without a "push," nothing will ever be done?
That's not the way it works. As I mentioned last week, did Ted Kennedy "step down" for the "good of the country?" Will Menino "step down?" It doesn't work like that. When you're a legend, you think you are invincible and immortal. It's just a mind-set and it has been reinforced continuously year after year by adoring, adulating fans who are intoxicated with the success. Look at Woody Hayes? Did he "step down?" He had to punch a player on the field during a game before he was forced out. Did Joe Paterno "step down?" Did Bobby Knight step down? (even after he went off the deep end, throwing chairs and assaulting players) It's just not going to happen.
And to answer your question, NO there isn't anyone, and that's the problem. Would YOU walk up to him and tell him it's time to "move on?" Seriously...would you? If you had no authority but bumped into him on the street, would you say, "Jack, I've been a long-time supporter of the program and we have such a wonderful tradition of success, but I think you should give it up?" And did it ever occur to you that this thing that we are getting so worked up about as if it's one of the most important things in our lives is not even that important to them, given what we discussed earlier regarding the standing of "sports" at BU? If a school like Penn State can't find anyone to tell JoePa to leave, how can you expect anyone at little 'ole BU to do it? Isn't that the whole reason Mookie is telling us to flood Brownie's office with complaints (requests, whatever)? Because he knows without a "push," nothing will ever be done?
ericredaxe
Veteran
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
If you assume JP coaches to the end of his contract... or if you assume that he has already said he is going to hang it up at the end of this year or next... do you (collective you) think his future replacement should be here as an assistant now / next year or not at all?
If you assume JP coaches to the end of his contract... or if you assume that he has already said he is going to hang it up at the end of this year or next... do you (collective you) think his future replacement should be here as an assistant now / next year or not at all?
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
I've got to get some work done, but let me just say this. BU's "elite" status is well secured. The program will survive. The fact that we are in a hockey-crazy area will be a salvaging force. We'll always get talent because a certain percentage of local players will always want to play at a local school, in the Beanpot, etc. I don't think there is any long-term concern, but my point was that the way we measure success may change. Nothing in life is static. And I also think that it seems as though some people want to win because they are more worried about whether or not we will still be an elite program instead of just for winning's sake. Thus my citing of the statistics, because if UCLA can still be considered "elite," I don't think we have that much to worry about here at BU. And believe me, we are facing the brunt of it now from the BC fans who are riding high. I remember going to a game at McHugh forum in 1975...we were slaughtering BC as usual when one women in her 60s turns around to us and crows, "At least OUR players are AMERICAN!!!!!!!" In fact, one of the big cheers that the BC pep band used to play was to the tune of "Yankee Doodle." So, things change. And they go in cycles. If you look at the stats, you will find as often as not that teams won championships in "chunks." It's not as if they won at an "even" rate. BC has won four times in the last twelve years and went 52 years before that. York won't coach forever, either. And when he goes, they will be rebuilding, trust me. So this drought won't last forever. We're all frustrated right now, but things will get better.
I've got to get some work done, but let me just say this. BU's "elite" status is well secured. The program will survive. The fact that we are in a hockey-crazy area will be a salvaging force. We'll always get talent because a certain percentage of local players will always want to play at a local school, in the Beanpot, etc. I don't think there is any long-term concern, but my point was that the way we measure success may change. Nothing in life is static. And I also think that it seems as though some people want to win because they are more worried about whether or not we will still be an elite program instead of just for winning's sake. Thus my citing of the statistics, because if UCLA can still be considered "elite," I don't think we have that much to worry about here at BU. And believe me, we are facing the brunt of it now from the BC fans who are riding high. I remember going to a game at McHugh forum in 1975...we were slaughtering BC as usual when one women in her 60s turns around to us and crows, "At least OUR players are AMERICAN!!!!!!!" In fact, one of the big cheers that the BC pep band used to play was to the tune of "Yankee Doodle." So, things change. And they go in cycles. If you look at the stats, you will find as often as not that teams won championships in "chunks." It's not as if they won at an "even" rate. BC has won four times in the last twelve years and went 52 years before that. York won't coach forever, either. And when he goes, they will be rebuilding, trust me. So this drought won't last forever. We're all frustrated right now, but things will get better.
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
A strong coach/leader can win anywhere.
Jeff Jackson: Lake State
Shawn Walsh: Maine
Jim Calhoun: UConn
Pat Fitzgerald: Northwestern (I'm a big NU fan. I couldn't resist.)
The fact that tradition/arena/city/Beanpot/great conference are already in place to help attract recruits means an awesome coach has 5 less hurdles to get over before the championships start flooding in.
BU Hockey: Tarnished Elite
A strong coach/leader can win anywhere.
Jeff Jackson: Lake State
Shawn Walsh: Maine
Jim Calhoun: UConn
Pat Fitzgerald: Northwestern
(I'm a big NU fan. I couldn't resist.)The fact that tradition/arena/city/Beanpot/great conference are already in place to help attract recruits means an awesome coach has 5 less hurdles to get over before the championships start flooding in.
BU Hockey: Tarnished Elite
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DaveStPaul
New member
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
I tried to find a hockey blog and stumbled into "Ulysses" -- sheesh!
Ah, that explains it; thanks.
mookie's whole mind is in f-burg.
I tried to find a hockey blog and stumbled into "Ulysses" -- sheesh!
Ah, that explains it; thanks.
mookie's whole mind is in f-burg.
claver2010
*****
defkit
Well-known member
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
Agree that these things often go in cycles. However, the current down cycle is too long, and I have no comfort that it will come back up. In fact, if it was going to go up, then 2006 and 2009 should have been the triggers. but in each case, the team followed it up with several non-eventful years. The cycle won't start again until the coaching problem is fixed.
I'm not asking for 7 FF's in 8 years as we had from 1990 to 1997. I'd like to be in the FF at least every third year. I'd like to be in more HE Championship games.
Agree that these things often go in cycles. However, the current down cycle is too long, and I have no comfort that it will come back up. In fact, if it was going to go up, then 2006 and 2009 should have been the triggers. but in each case, the team followed it up with several non-eventful years. The cycle won't start again until the coaching problem is fixed.
I'm not asking for 7 FF's in 8 years as we had from 1990 to 1997. I'd like to be in the FF at least every third year. I'd like to be in more HE Championship games.
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
Right, but this WILL happen and things will get better again. Probably not as quickly as we'd like (see the discussion above about why it is difficult to confront this issue). Together we can! Hope and change! Forward!
Right, but this WILL happen and things will get better again. Probably not as quickly as we'd like (see the discussion above about why it is difficult to confront this issue). Together we can! Hope and change! Forward!
ericredaxe
Veteran
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
In the last 15 years, other than BC, how many teams have been in the FF every third year?
Edit: I don't know the answer... Minnesota maybe? Denver? North Dakota?
In the last 15 years, other than BC, how many teams have been in the FF every third year?
Edit: I don't know the answer... Minnesota maybe? Denver? North Dakota?
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mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
f'town.
my golf is in f-burg. my mind is in f'town
mookie's whole mind is in f-burg.
f'town.
my golf is in f-burg. my mind is in f'town
Nick Papagiorgio
Holding court
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
Where were you last week?
BC 10
Ndak 7
MICH 6
MAINE 6
Where were you last week?
BC 10
Ndak 7
MICH 6
MAINE 6
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
Don't know either...difficult to find. But I can tell you how many Frozen Fours each school has been in (not WHEN):
<table>
<tr><td>Michigan</td><td>24</td></tr>
<tr><td>Boston College</td><td>23</td></tr>
<tr><td>Boston University</td><td>21</td></tr>
<tr><td>Minnesota</td><td>20</td></tr>
<tr><td>North Dakota</td><td>19</td></tr>
<tr><td>Denver</td><td>14</td></tr>
<tr><td>Harvard</td><td>12</td></tr>
<tr><td>Wisconsin</td><td>12</td></tr>
<tr><td>Maine</td><td>11</td></tr>
<tr><td>Michigan State</td><td>11</td></tr>
<tr><td>Colorado College</td><td>10</td></tr>
<tr><td>Michigan Tech</td><td>10</td></tr>
<tr><td>St. Lawrence</td><td>9</td></tr>
<tr><td>Cornell</td><td>8</td></tr>
<tr><td>Clarkson</td><td>7</td></tr>
<tr><td>New Hampshire</td><td>7</td></tr>
<tr><td>RPI</td><td>5</td></tr>
</table>
Don't think too many people are feeling bad for us...
Don't know either...difficult to find. But I can tell you how many Frozen Fours each school has been in (not WHEN):
<table>
<tr><td>Michigan</td><td>24</td></tr>
<tr><td>Boston College</td><td>23</td></tr>
<tr><td>Boston University</td><td>21</td></tr>
<tr><td>Minnesota</td><td>20</td></tr>
<tr><td>North Dakota</td><td>19</td></tr>
<tr><td>Denver</td><td>14</td></tr>
<tr><td>Harvard</td><td>12</td></tr>
<tr><td>Wisconsin</td><td>12</td></tr>
<tr><td>Maine</td><td>11</td></tr>
<tr><td>Michigan State</td><td>11</td></tr>
<tr><td>Colorado College</td><td>10</td></tr>
<tr><td>Michigan Tech</td><td>10</td></tr>
<tr><td>St. Lawrence</td><td>9</td></tr>
<tr><td>Cornell</td><td>8</td></tr>
<tr><td>Clarkson</td><td>7</td></tr>
<tr><td>New Hampshire</td><td>7</td></tr>
<tr><td>RPI</td><td>5</td></tr>
</table>
Don't think too many people are feeling bad for us...
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
Only one course there...Oak Hill. I must know you...
f'town.
my golf is in f-burg. my mind is in f'town
Only one course there...Oak Hill. I must know you...
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
In regard to winning anywhere, it's interesting that two of those guys were proven cheaters in Calhoun and Walsh.
Also, you're such a big Northwestern fan that you called him Jim and not Pat
A strong coach/leader can win anywhere.
Jeff Jackson: Lake State
Shawn Walsh: Maine
Jim Calhoun: UConn
Jim Fitzgerald: Northwestern
The fact that tradition/arena/city/Beanpot/great conference are already in place to help attract recruits means an awesome coach has 5 less hurdles to get over before the championships start flooding in.
BU Hockey: Tarnished Elite
In regard to winning anywhere, it's interesting that two of those guys were proven cheaters in Calhoun and Walsh.
Also, you're such a big Northwestern fan that you called him Jim and not Pat
brassbonanza
Super Serial
Re: Boston University 2012-13 Season Thread -- Part II
I was waiting for one of you pinheads to comment. Please provide evidence that Calhoun is a cheater, on any of his championship teams, specifically, or otherwise. What he was suspended for three games for last season is now no longer an NCAA rule. Putting Calhoun and Walsh in the same sentence is utterly laughable.
I was waiting for one of you pinheads to comment. Please provide evidence that Calhoun is a cheater, on any of his championship teams, specifically, or otherwise. What he was suspended for three games for last season is now no longer an NCAA rule. Putting Calhoun and Walsh in the same sentence is utterly laughable.
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