Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

[moose97]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Maybe I'm reading this wrong:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/blogs/118471889.html

But this:

Trouble is, the WCHA doesn't want the Gophers or Wisconsin or anyone else just playing certain teams.

No. If the Gophers want 10 or so games against WCHA teams, they will have to play all of them.

On a home and away rotation, WCHA commissioner Bruce McLeod said on Monday.

Reads like some strong-arming by the 10 remaining WCHA teams. I.E., you want to play WCHA teams at all? Then you've got to play some on the road, or we won't play in your building.

Think about it - Minnesota and Wisconsin don't have all the power here - teams have to agree to travel there to play. The WCHA can "threaten" to boycott the Gophs and Badgers if the refuse to travel, as long as all 10 teams stick to the agreement. Minnesota and Wisconsin need the WCHA teams as much as the WCHA needs the B1G schools, especially with the 20 game conference limit...


edit - And before anyone says "fine, Minn will just schedule eastern or AHA schools," think about how many Gopher fans don't like this as it is, and think about that B1G schedule with no SCSU, UMD, UND or the like (or zero road games within reasonable driving distance) anywhere on it...

 

[bronconick]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Are there enough teams and money in hockey to have 6 non-conference "money instead of road games in return" series? Until this year, your average Big Ten school had what, one of those? The rest of their non-conference schedules were mostly the Thanksgiving Big Ten games and the holiday tournaments. Is Wisconsin really going to want to sit down every year and cut half a dozen or more checks just to avoid *any* road games?

Seems like if their goal is 20 home games, they're best off having the 4 road games be parts of home and homes, so they only have to write 3 weekend checks.

And outside of UW and Minn, the other BT schools don't have a crushing size advantage in their usual attendance compared to getting football games. It's utterly stupid for Michigan to play a game at WMU's 32,000 seat stadium when their football stadium is 112,000. Less of a big deal for them to trade 3 games at ~4,500 SRO seat Lawson for 5 games at 6,900 seat Yost over 4 years. Ditto for MSU and Munn.

Edit: Sure, they could just pull some of the $20 million in BTN money, but that seems counterproductive in the larger sense.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

I didn't say it was easy, but to dismiss it out of hand because Osborne says it won't happen is short-sighted. Folks are speculating about Illinois and Indiana and those schools have twice the problems of Nebraska since they have facility issues. All I'm saying is that, either Osborne could change his mind, or a new AD could come in and start-up hockey and it would be less of a cost than for just about any other B1G school because of the new arena.

I'll give you the things can change scenario. After all, until Penn State threw their hat in the ring who would have foreseen our conferences getting all fubar'd?

 

[moose97]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Are there enough teams and money in hockey to have 6 non-conference "money instead of road games in return" series? Until this year, your average Big Ten school had what, one of those? The rest of their non-conference schedules were mostly the Thanksgiving Big Ten games and the holiday tournaments. Is Wisconsin really going to want to sit down every year and cut half a dozen or more checks just to avoid *any* road games?

Seems like if their goal is 20 home games, they're best off having the 4 road games be parts of home and homes, so they only have to write 3 weekend checks.

And outside of UW and Minn, the other BT schools don't have a crushing size advantage in their usual attendance compared to getting football games. It's utterly stupid for Michigan to play a game at WMU's 32,000 seat stadium when their football stadium is 112,000. Less of a big deal for them to trade 3 games at ~4,500 SRO seat Lawson for 5 games at 6,900 seat Yost over 4 years. Ditto for MSU and Munn.

Edit: Sure, they could just pull some of the $20 million in BTN money, but that seems counterproductive in the larger sense.

I recall Bemidji State giving a guarantee ($6,000?) to Sacred Heart years ago. Its not like these things are rare...

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Maybe I'm reading this wrong:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/blogs/118471889.html

But this:



Reads like some strong-arming by the 10 remaining WCHA teams. I.E., you want to play WCHA teams at all? Then you've got to play some on the road, or we won't play in your building.

Think about it - Minnesota and Wisconsin don't have all the power here - teams have to agree to travel there to play. The WCHA can "threaten" to boycott the Gophs and Badgers if the refuse to travel, as long as all 10 teams stick to the agreement. Minnesota and Wisconsin need the WCHA teams as much as the WCHA needs the B1G schools, especially with the 20 game conference limit...

Sure, the WCHA and the commish can say that. It's a nice negotiating stance. But what is the WCHA really going to do if the conference can't reach a deal with UW & Minn, and then, say, Tech schedules a weekend in Madison? Kick Tech out? Unlikely. Fine them? Better be more than what Tech made by making the trip.

And maybe UW and Minn play nice by their old friends and agree to it. Maybe.

But Bronconick has a good point - the money advantage is greater for UW and Minn because of rink size.

And, it's really not a 20-game limit among those schools. Just because they play 20 conference games doesn't mean they couldn't play an extra series if they need to fill out the schedule.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Are there enough teams and money in hockey to have 6 non-conference "money instead of road games in return" series? Until this year, your average Big Ten school had what, one of those? The rest of their non-conference schedules were mostly the Thanksgiving Big Ten games and the holiday tournaments. Is Wisconsin really going to want to sit down every year and cut half a dozen or more checks just to avoid *any* road games?

Seems like if their goal is 20 home games, they're best off having the 4 road games be parts of home and homes, so they only have to write 3 weekend checks.

And outside of UW and Minn, the other BT schools don't have a crushing size advantage in their usual attendance compared to getting football games. It's utterly stupid for Michigan to play a game at WMU's 32,000 seat stadium when their football stadium is 112,000. Less of a big deal for them to trade 3 games at ~4,500 SRO seat Lawson for 5 games at 6,900 seat Yost over 4 years. Ditto for MSU and Munn.

Edit: Sure, they could just pull some of the $20 million in BTN money, but that seems counterproductive in the larger sense.

When was the last time Lawson had 4500? You really are high on Blashill. (me too)

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Unless there's pooled revenue from the Big Ten I don't see where OSU would make money on this and Ohio State does nothing UNLESS there's money involved. Wonder what's REALLY going on behind closed doors? OSU loses money big time on hockey here. Nearly an 18,000 seat arena and attendance is around 2000-3000, sometimes less! That doesn't even cover the electric bill to turn on the lights! That's primarily why we hired Oz, to get a winning program going and get attendance back up in the 6000 seat range which should be normal attendance for a school our size.

 

[scsutommyboy]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Correct. They've played at Maine and UNH, but those games were a number of years ago. It's abundantly clear that the MN athletic department wants to maximize the number of home games for $$$, even if the opponents are a joke and the attendance isn't exactly a sellout. In their eyes, it's better to host a team like Canisius and draw 8000 fans and have a dead building than to give up those home dates and have a reasonable schedule that involves an agreement with the likes of BC or whoever to play in their rink in exchange for them coming here.

This is exactly why minnesota and Sconnie are not going to find it easy to fill their schedule with quality teams. If this ends up happening it is going to hurt their pairwise ranking big time.

A team like SCSU will still have a 28 game conference schedule and needs home dates as well. As long as they can fill the home dates they need there is no reason to settle for away games against Sconnie and Minnesota. I would hope the admin is smart enough not to except anything less than a 1:1 ratio for home/away games with Minnesota. I know fans want to see Minnesota on the home schedule and playing at Mary ooouchie does nothing for the fan base. all of the fans I know could care less if we ever play Wisconsin again so I really hope we don't settle for anything less equal home dates against the Badgers.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

When was the last time Lawson had 4500? You really are high on Blashill. (me too)

God, that has been a few years. They did crack 4k a few times this year (counting the few hundred season ticket holders for hockey who apparently live in Florida or whatever the hell they do all those weekends) I just figure if big ten games happen less often, and the team doesn't suck *** like recent years, they should get pretty close to a SRO sellout of 4,575 on those occasions.

 

[moose97]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Sure, the WCHA and the commish can say that. It's a nice negotiating stance. But what is the WCHA really going to do if the conference can't reach a deal with UW & Minn, and then, say, Tech schedules a weekend in Madison? Kick Tech out? Unlikely. Fine them? Better be more than what Tech made by making the trip.

And maybe UW and Minn play nice by their old friends and agree to it. Maybe.

But Bronconick has a good point - the money advantage is greater for UW and Minn because of rink size.

And, it's really not a 20-game limit among those schools. Just because they play 20 conference games doesn't mean they couldn't play an extra series if they need to fill out the schedule.

Why couldn't the WCHA set up a system to fine schools that violate the "B1G blackball?" Schedule games with the B1G schools and you forfeit your conference tourney share. If the conference tourney share drops dramatically, peg a figure on the fine (maybe based on home attendance) for each school. If it's agreed upon (which an agreement to "boycott" B1G road games would be anyway), why couldn't it work?

edit - In fact, I'd argue that really is the only way to enforce some sort of official "boycott." Otherwise, you could vote on it, and one school screws it up by scheduling a series... Then everyone has to follow.

 

[4four4]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

This is exactly why minnesota and Sconnie are not going to find it easy to fill their schedule with quality teams. If this ends up happening it is going to hurt their pairwise ranking big time.

If we even have a pairwise in three years.

 

[4four4]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Unless there's pooled revenue from the Big Ten I don't see where OSU would make money on this and Ohio State does nothing UNLESS there's money involved. Wonder what's REALLY going on behind closed doors? OSU loses money big time on hockey here. Nearly an 18,000 seat arena and attendance is around 2000-3000, sometimes less! That doesn't even cover the electric bill to turn on the lights! That's primarily why we hired Oz, to get a winning program going and get attendance back up in the 6000 seat range which should be normal attendance for a school our size.

Or maybe the state of Ohio doesn't support the game of ice hockey. Football or bust.

 

[scsutommyboy]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

The lesser programs bow to us because they need money. It's as simple as that. Without the financial enticements offered to them by the likes of Minnesota, they would be even deeper in the red. Should they ever become self sufficient, you would see this sort of scheduling quickly come to an end.

Exactly why teams like SCSU don't need agree to play at minnesota and not get home games back. Once Minnesota leaves the WCHA if the other schools can't make a buck off of them why play them?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

It's Tuesday. Huh. The BTHC still sucks. Who knew?

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Why couldn't the WCHA set up a system to fine schools that violate the "B1G blackball?" Schedule games with the B1G schools and you forfeit your conference tourney share. If the conference tourney share drops dramatically, peg a figure on the fine (maybe based on home attendance) for each school. If it's agreed upon (which an agreement to "boycott" B1G road games would be anyway), why couldn't it work?

OK, do it.

It would be tougher for Minnesota to give up the current WCHA schools because of the in-state pressure which can be brought to bear to try to get them to play SCSU, UMD, BSU and MSU-M. As for Wisconsin, I think the hockey fans would miss NoDak, UMD and others but there aren't going to be legislators from those other towns making noise about 'forcing' them to play each other.

So, then, Wisconsin loses those 10 possible opponents. That leaves 40 other teams and UW has to find 7 of them. A few - Boston College, Boston Univ., maybe Notre Dame and Miami - could demand home/home series. I still think that UW could get 7 of Lake Superior, Western, Huntsville, Ferris, any ECAC school, any Atlantic Hockey team and half of Hockey East to come to Madison.

They would be counting on two things to get into the NCAA:
A) winning a six team conference (not 12) for an autobid
B) collective strength of schedule

A could be easier than it is now. B might be tougher. Between the two, I'm guessing UW probably likes it chances.

Again, I'm not saying I like the idea. But WCHA unity isn't guaranteed - nor is ruling out UW wanting to continue its relationships. I'm just suggesting UW seeking 14 home games isn't far fetched.

 

[Alton]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Why couldn't the WCHA set up a system to fine schools that violate the "B1G blackball?" Schedule games with the B1G schools and you forfeit your conference tourney share. If the conference tourney share drops dramatically, peg a figure on the fine (maybe based on home attendance) for each school. If it's agreed upon (which an agreement to "boycott" B1G road games would be anyway), why couldn't it work?

edit - In fact, I'd argue that really is the only way to enforce some sort of official "boycott." Otherwise, you could vote on it, and one school screws it up by scheduling a series... Then everyone has to follow.

I am not a lawyer, but I would suspect that you are getting pretty close to a violation of antitrust laws if you try this. The WCHA is set up as a scheduling agreement--the teams in the league agree to play 28 games against each other, at times and places dictated by the conference office, under rules set by the members. The other 6-8 games that a team is permitted to play are not in any way under the purview of the conference office, and belong to the schools themselves. If Michigan Tech wants to play a couple of games at Penn State, the conference doesn't have any power to stop them or fine them, because Michigan Tech never agreed to give the conference office that power in the first place.

If all 10 WCHA teams agree to not schedule the Big Ten teams, that's one thing, and there is no problem with that. What would be a problem would be 9 WCHA teams trying to enforce this rule against a 10th team.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

I am not a lawyer, but I would suspect that you are getting pretty close to a violation of antitrust laws if you try this. The WCHA is set up as a scheduling agreement--the teams in the league agree to play 28 games against each other, at times and places dictated by the conference office, under rules set by the members. The other 6-8 games that a team is permitted to play are not in any way under the purview of the conference office, and belong to the schools themselves. If Michigan Tech wants to play a couple of games at Penn State, the conference doesn't have any power to stop them or fine them, because Michigan Tech never agreed to give the conference office that power in the first place.

If all 10 WCHA teams agree to not schedule the Big Ten teams, that's one thing, and there is no problem with that. What would be a problem would be 9 WCHA teams trying to enforce this rule against a 10th team.

This would be true if the B1G and WCHA were the only two conferences. There's dozens of other teams to play, and each one of them is a massive *yawn* compared to the WCHA rivalries.

Now, if this were the NCAA saying B1G and WCHA can't play each other, then maybe you'd have a point.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

How many schools folded their hockey programs after the big state schools left the ECAC to form the HEA? Were they (current ECAC schools) any better off financially than the directional Michigan schools or the regional Minnesota schools are now? I think the talk of the death of college hockey is premature.

Isn't it possible that tBTN airs some of those NC games? The only people that get to see UMTC vs UND are those with FSNorth or FSSN. I'd watch a Wisc vs Denver game. The only way I, or many others, could watch those games would be if they were on tBTN. Wouldn't UMD or SCSU benefit if they were on tBTN? I know most of the FSD games here in MIchigan (and there weren't many) either had UM or MSU anyway. So wouldn't it be better for NMU to be seen on tBTN, that goes out nationally, once every couple of years rather than on FSD which is only seen here in Michigan?

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Or maybe the state of Ohio doesn't support the game of ice hockey. Football or bust.

Basketball's big here right now. . But seriously you are correct, the school has not supported hockey. They would not put up with a football coach for 13 years with a track record like our previous hockey coach. They also kick the hockey team out of the arena at conference playoff time to host the state high school wrestling tournament. There has been rumor of a hockey only arena but facts are elusive. The only thing they've done to try and improve the sport was to hire Osiecki. Here's a link to Ohio State's website on what their official word is on Big Ten hockey. http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/Vi...1&SPID=10406&ATCLID=205120626&DB_OEM_ID=17300
I wonder if Osiecki actually believes what he's saying or if he's reading from the school's script?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Basketball's big here right now. . But seriously you are correct, the school has not supported hockey. They would not put up with a football coach for 13 years with a track record like our previous hockey coach. They also kick the hockey team out of the arena at conference playoff time to host the state high school wrestling tournament. There has been rumor of a hockey only arena but facts are elusive. The only thing they've done to try and improve the sport was to hire Osiecki. Here's a link to Ohio State's website on what their official word is on Big Ten hockey. http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/Vi...1&SPID=10406&ATCLID=205120626&DB_OEM_ID=17300

Would they put up with 3 years of your hockey performance in football?

I'd seriously doubt even sweatervest could survive that. Two years and I have a feeling he'd be on thin ice.