Big News out of the CIS

[Call It]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

(in case you haven't been paying attention, even non-hockey playing Canadians are attracted to schools in the US)

This is fine because they PAY. With all the budget issues and cost of higher education, public US schools should not allow Foreign players to receive scholarships. The CIS should allow US players. In the NCAA is there another sport that has a disproportionate number of Foreign students receiving scholarships? How come no one is talking about the education, lots of talk about the quality of hockey? Isn't about education & cost?

 

[96IllinoisDad]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

This is fine because they PAY. With all the budget issues and cost of higher education, public US schools should not allow Foreign players to receive scholarships. The CIS should allow US players. In the NCAA is there another sport that has a disproportionate number of Foreign students receiving scholarships? How come no one is talking about the education, lots of talk about the quality of hockey? Isn't about education & cost?

"Foreign players"? Under that theory, you should't allow out-of-state students because the taxpayers of each state subsidize their public universities. So, Vermont could only give scholarships to Vermont residents, North Dakota to North Dakota, New Hampshie to New Hampshire, Maine to Maine, etc.

Nope, only way that it is competitive is to allow the best players get spots/scholarships regardless of Nationality or state of residence at DI. NCAA has cracked down on D3 schools giving "merit" scholarships to foreign players where they were basically disguised athletic scholarships.

 

[Call It]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

"Foreign players"? Under that theory, you should't allow out-of-state students because the taxpayers of each state subsidize their public universities. So, Vermont could only give scholarships to Vermont residents, North Dakota to North Dakota, New Hampshie to New Hampshire, Maine to Maine, etc.

Nope, only way that it is competitive is to allow the best players get spots/scholarships regardless of Nationality or state of residence at DI. NCAA has cracked down on D3 schools giving "merit" scholarships to foreign players where they were basically disguised athletic scholarships.

OR we could just print more money and every female hockey player that plays in the NCAA can for for free, D1 & D3. There are public schools in D3 too.

 

[D2D]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

OR we could just print more money and every female hockey player that plays in the NCAA can for for free, D1 & D3. There are public schools in D3 too.

And why stop there? Free money, free health care, free everything, for all students, no hockey required? Sounds too good to be true?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Nope, only way that it is competitive is to allow the best players get spots/scholarships regardless of Nationality or state of residence at DI.

yeah. well convince the Canadians of that, if they want to open up their country such that people from the US go by the same rules as Canadians, as the rules generally here are for them, then I am all for it

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

actually it will improve NCAA hockey, first, making it more difficult to attract Canadians will only help the schools that depend heavily on Canadians WHAT? you say?
some of the schools depend way to heavily on Canadians to their own disadvantage, the best Canadians go to the best schools, I don't see this changing (in case you haven't been paying attention, even non-hockey playing Canadians are attracted to schools in the US) the second and third tier schools attract second & third tier hockey players, in the long run, it is not only bad for that school, but bad for US hockey, losing those B & C players would help by giving those spots to Americans & Europeans which will improve US & European hockey

A number of interesting things going on in this thread.

Maybe it's just me but I've read your post several times and can't follow your reasoning. As well, in discussing "best schools" and "second and third tier schools" are you actually referring to the academics side or are you referring to the hockey programs at those universities?

Hopefully, the increased financial ability of Canadian universities/programs to recruit players will not exclude US players. I think history has shown in many different areas that protectionism usually ends in failure or produces a lower quality product. Free market dynamics will ensure the best on ice product.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Hopefully, the increased financial ability of Canadian universities/programs to recruit players will not exclude US players. I think history has shown in many different areas that protectionism usually ends in failure or produces a lower quality product. Free market dynamics will ensure the best on ice product.

couldn't agree more

Maybe it's just me but I've read your post several times and can't follow your reasoning. As well, in discussing "best schools" and "second and third tier schools" are you actually referring to the academics side or are you referring to the hockey programs at those universities?

If you want to be the best, it makes sense to get the best local players you can, get the best US players you can, get the best Canadians, and the best World players you can, in short put together the best roster you can irrespective of where they come from

exclusively picking from one group is not likely to work for two reasons, it is tough to get enough from any one group, and your competition has free reign with the groups you ignore

sure, getting a bunch of Europeans worked when nobody else was going after them, how is that working out for you now?
I noticed only 800 people showed up to see UMD takle on WI, it appears to there isn't much interest in the Bulldogs now that they are just another team.

It would be interesting to hear the justification from the small private D1 schools why some of them are heavily into Canadians, what exactly does it do for the school?

"Hey parents and prospective students, come to (fill in school name here) we might overcharge you for your education, but just look at the benefits of having a Canadian hockey team that is almost good enough to get excited about" (judging from the attendance, not many people do)

FYI, here is the distribution of players for a few top Eastern Schools. I've already posted this for the WCHA
School- Canadian players-US-local
Harvard-4-5-9
BU-9-3-11
BC-2-12-10
not being familiar with the area, I was pretty liberal with "local" anybody from NewEngland and the entire state of NY
Vermont & Northeastern have a pretty even distributiuon
Vermont-6-7-7
NE-5-8-6
while Maine is crazy for canadians 18-4-4
while Providence is just the opposite 1-16-5
New Hampshire ignore local players 12-7-1
and Conn is a little light too 9-10-5

of course the ECAC (other than Harvard) pretty much ignore the locals (or is it the locals are smarter and go elsewhere?)
and of course somebody from Cornell or Clarkson will attempt to disprove the theory by exception
no it doesn't

 

[ARM]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

of course the ECAC (other than Harvard) pretty much ignore the locals (or is it the locals are smarter and go elsewhere?)
and of course somebody from Cornell or Clarkson will attempt to disprove the theory by exception

Cornell was one of the weakest teams in the country. Then the Big Red started getting many of the top players from Canada, added in some talented kids from around the U.S., and now they are an NCAA Tournament team every year. St. Cloud has a lot of Minnesota players and has struggled recently. There is more than one model for success and more than one mix of players that can lead to losing.

I don't come home bummed out after a game like today and think, "Canadians scored too many of our goals and our starting goalie is Canadian." Once they put on my team's sweater, they are all Minnesota kids.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Cornell was one of the weakest teams in the country. Then the Big Red started getting many of the top players from Canada, added in some talented kids from around the U.S., and now they are an NCAA Tournament team every year. St. Cloud has a lot of Minnesota players and has struggled recently. There is more than one model for success and more than one mix of players that can lead to losing.

I don't come home bummed out after a game like today and think, "Canadians scored too many of our goals and our starting goalie is Canadian." Once they put on my team's sweater, they are all Minnesota kids.

I was wrong, it wasn't someone from Cornell or Clarkson who tried to disprove by the exception

I don't come home bummed out after a game like today and think, "Canadians scored too many of our goals and our starting goalie is Canadian." Once they put on my team's sweater, they are all Minnesota kids.

you certainly aren't the first, nor will you be the last to missread what is said
tell you what, you stop putting words in my mouth, I'll not put words in yours, waddya say?

since you missed it, I never said a team shouldn't recruit Canadians, I said relying too heavily on any group is not likely to give the results teams are after, the best players have many choices, it is unlikely any team can grab the best of any group, and certainly not a group as large, widespread, and diverse as Canada.

Cornell & Clarkson get into the tournament because they are the best of the teams that predominently recruit the same in the ECAC, with the exception of Harvard, which in case you haven't noticed, seems to be doing quite well , in fact I'd say they have a better history of success


I'll dig up and post the data for the WCHA, but it is clear, the teams that do a good job of getting the local talent (BTW, the easieast to get if you actually go after them, something many teams fail to do), and grab a few of the best US & Canadian players are the ones for the most part on top, going exclusively after one group isn't likely to do it
(unless your goal is limited to being the best of the ECAC)
team-Canadians-US-local-world
BC 2 12 10 0
BU 9 3 11
Vermont 6 7 7 1
NE 5 8 6 1
NH 12 7 1 1
Prov 1 16 5 1
Conn 9 10 5 1
Maine 18 4 4


Harvard 4 5 9
Corn 17 2 2
Clark 19 2 0
St. L 11 9 3 1
Quin 10 9 4 1
Princ 10 9 3
Ren 4 15 3 1
Yale 9 5 4 2
Dart 14 3 3
Union 8 4 11
Colgate 9 10 2
Brown 9 9 4

AND HOW ABOUT BACKING UP YOUR CLAIMS WITH DATA?
it is easy to make comments, everyone has their opinion, but if you are going to make claims ARM, where is the data to back it up?
seeing the roster of StCloud & Cornell over the last decade would be a good way to back up your claim

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

you certainly aren't the first, nor will you be the last to missread what is said
tell you what, you stop putting words in my mouth, I'll not put words in yours, waddya say?

since you missed it, I never said a team shouldn't recruit Canadians, I said relying too heavily on any group is not likely to give the results teams are after, the best players have many choices, it is unlikely any team can grab the best of any group, and certainly not a group as large, widespread, and diverse as Canada.

Cornell & Clarkson get into the tournament because they are the best of the teams that predominently recruit the same in the ECAC, with the exception of Harvard, which in case you haven't noticed, seems to be doing quite well , in fact I'd say they have a better history of success


I'll dig up and post the data for the WCHA, but it is clear, the teams that do a good job of getting the local talent (BTW, the easieast to get if you actually go after them, something many teams fail to do), and grab a few of the best US & Canadian players are the ones for the most part on top, going exclusively after one group isn't likely to do it
(unless your goal is limited to being the best of the ECAC)
team-Canadians-US-local-world
BC 2 12 10 0
BU 9 3 11
Vermont 6 7 7 1
NE 5 8 6 1
NH 12 7 1 1
Prov 1 16 5 1
Conn 9 10 5 1
Maine 18 4 4


Harvard 4 5 9
Corn 17 2 2
Clark 19 2 0
St. L 11 9 3 1
Quin 10 9 4 1
Princ 10 9 3
Ren 4 15 3 1
Yale 9 5 4 2
Dart 14 3 3
Union 8 4 11
Colgate 9 10 2
Brown 9 9 4

AND HOW ABOUT BACKING UP YOUR CLAIMS WITH DATA?
it is easy to make comments, everyone has their opinion, but if you are going to make claims ARM, where is the data to back it up?
seeing the roster of StCloud & Cornell over the last decade would be a good way to back up your claim

Blah Blah Blah.....While you are asking ARM for data, how about showing how your data is relevant and correlated to success. I fail to see the correlation and I'm with ARM....There is more than one way to create success, and the same data set breakdown between countries of origin is NOT relevant.

Examples from the opposite spectrum.....

1 - BC is 100% American ( only 2 rostered canucks over the last 13 years)
2 - Cornell is largely Canadian over the last 6 years.

Both teams have tasted roughly the same success over the last 5 years. Tournament teams and coming close to a title. So how do you suggest that one method is superior over another ?.

 

[ARM]

where is the data to back it up?
seeing the roster of StCloud & Cornell over the last decade would be a good way to back up your claim

http://www.collegehockeystats.net/1314/rosters/all

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Blah Blah Blah.....While you are asking ARM for data, how about showing how your data is relevant and correlated to success. I fail to see the correlation and I'm with ARM....There is more than one way to create success, and the same data set breakdown between countries of origin is NOT relevant.

Examples from the opposite spectrum.....

1 - BC is 100% American ( only 2 rostered canucks over the last 13 years)
2 - Cornell is largely Canadian over the last 6 years.

Both teams have tasted roughly the same success over the last 5 years. Tournament teams and coming close to a title. So how do you suggest that one method is superior over another ?.

Apparently reading is not your strong point, but then that seems to be a common problem around here, my assumption is that although this is a college hockey forum, many of the participants didn't actually complete college

the answer is that neither approach is superior because they both exclude a group from their recruiting, if you actually read what I said you'd know that the superior recruiting method is to get the pick of the litter from your immediate area, get a few high quality Canadians, and get a few of the top US players, and perhaps an International player or two.

and according to the website ARM referred me to, both Clarkson & Cornell have won 60% of their games aver the last 5 and 8 seasons, that doesn't sound very impressive to me. You have failed to both disprove what I have said, and to prove what you said.
Stone meanwhile has won nearly 70% over the last 18 years
Frost has won over 80%
as has Mark Johnson
and note that UND using the strategy I have said is the best has risen to one of the top teams while UMD, using the your strategy has fallen out of the ranks

so tell me again about the magnificent Cornell & Clarkson recruiting strategy of nearly 100% Canadians



And thanks for nothing ARM, apparently you don't have enough confidence in what you say to back it up with the data

 

[whoop87]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Obviously you want to recruit the best from all the pools but time and $$$ come into play here so the smaller D1 programs with limited recruiting budgets are at a disadvantage. I think most programs, coaches and fans would be thrilled with the results Cornell and Clarkson have put up the past few years. Pokechecker, you're dipping back into seasons prior to influx of top tier Canadian recruits at those two schools. Cornell has a winning percentage over .800 if you only go back 4.5 seasons and Clarkson's is closer to .700 over that same chunk of time (including their records for the 1st half of this season).

Also, Pokechecker, I'm not quite sure what your definition of local talent may be. Here in NH, I consider southern Quebec kids and all New England kids to be local talent. The players and their families can easily drive here for games. Likewise, I consider the southern Ontario recruits to be local talent for Clarkson, St. Lawrence, and Cornell...as well as several other NY schools. Clarkson and Cornell have done extremely well building their recruiting pipelines in Ontario and all of Canada - and their recent records back up their recruiting strategy. It seems to be working for them right now. Have they won an NCAA championship? No, not yet, but Cornell came about as close as you can get with their 3OT loss vs. UMD in the championship game in '09-'10. Will the all-Canadian recruiting strategy work for all schools? Of course not, but it's working OK for them and that's where their recruiting niche currently lies.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Apparently reading is not your strong point......

.......so tell me again about the magnificent Cornell & Clarkson recruiting strategy of nearly 100% Canadians

Hmm, that is like the Pot calling the kettle Black. Go back and read my post. I never suggested that picking all Canadians was a superior strategy, so not sure how you drew that conclusion from my post.

Just to refresh your memory, this is what I stated:

"There is more than one way to create success, and the data set breakdown between countries of origin is NOT relevant.

Examples from the opposite spectrum.....

1 - BC is 100% American ( only 2 rostered canucks over the last 13 years)
2 - Cornell is largely Canadian over the last 6 years.

Both teams have tasted roughly the same success over the last 5 years.

Not sure why the beef with Cornell and Clarkson. IMHO they have done very well with budgets much more limited than those of the big schools in the WCHA. At the end of the Day, big schools with big funds have a distinct advantage in the recruiting wars, and I suspect that there is a much higher correlation with school budgets and amount of success in comparison to which talent pools you draw from.

Typically you find more Canadians on Eastern schools, especially schools like Clarkson and Cornell, who are closer than most schools to the large pool of players from Ontario. Clarkson has quite a few players from the Ottawa/Ontario East/Montreal area. You can pretty much count those players as being from the local pool, despite the fact they are from Canada. The home base for players like Rattray and Howe of Clarkson, just to name a few examples, is a little over an hour north of Potsdam.

My point is to illustrate that "there is more than one way to build a team". I agree with you that picking all the top players from the various talent pool gives you the best chance of success. At the end of the day top players will continue to go to top schools, and to those schools that offer the most "Free Stuff". That is no different than any other sport.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

top players will continue to go to top schools

I assume that by "top schools" you mean currently the top (ie: more successful) hockey programs as opposed to those that might be perceived to be the "top schools" academically speaking.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

I assume that by "top schools" you mean currently the top (ie: more successful) hockey programs as opposed to those that might be perceived to be the "top schools" academically speaking.

Correct in the context of that discussion.

Having said that, each has it's own definition of what constitutes a top school. Personally look at it from an academic point of view first. For others it is the school experience or strength/tradition of the varsity program.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Obviously you want to recruit the best from all the pools but time and $$$ come into play here so the smaller D1 programs with limited recruiting budgets are at a disadvantage. I think most programs, coaches and fans would be thrilled with the results Cornell and Clarkson have put up the past few years. Pokechecker, you're dipping back into seasons prior to influx of top tier Canadian recruits at those two schools. Cornell has a winning percentage over .800 if you only go back 4.5 seasons and Clarkson's is closer to .700 over that same chunk of time (including their records for the 1st half of this season).

Also, Pokechecker, I'm not quite sure what your definition of local talent may be. Here in NH, I consider southern Quebec kids and all New England kids to be local talent. The players and their families can easily drive here for games. Likewise, I consider the southern Ontario recruits to be local talent for Clarkson, St. Lawrence, and Cornell...as well as several other NY schools. Clarkson and Cornell have done extremely well building their recruiting pipelines in Ontario and all of Canada - and their recent records back up their recruiting strategy. It seems to be working for them right now. Have they won an NCAA championship? No, not yet, but Cornell came about as close as you can get with their 3OT loss vs. UMD in the championship game in '09-'10. Will the all-Canadian recruiting strategy work for all schools? Of course not, but it's working OK for them and that's where their recruiting niche currently lies.

This!!!

 

[Call It]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

Also, Pokechecker, I'm not quite sure what your definition of local talent may be. Here in NH, I consider southern Quebec kids and all New England kids to be local talent. The players and their families can easily drive here for games. QUOTE]

What?!!! Being able to drive there is the criteria for local? I can drive to N. Dakota & Canada but don't consider them local.

 

[Call It]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

The biggest point here is this. The public US schools give scholarships to Canadians and the Canadian schools do not give scholarships to US players. I say fair trade or no Canadian scholarships!

 

[valleyboy]

Re: Big News out of the CIS

To clarify this point... I haven't come across any reading material / documentation re: CIS sports scholarships that states or even implies that the recipient needs to be Canadian or any nationality for that matter to be eligible. It is my understanding that they are completely open and are only subject to other qualifiers such as marks and eligibility to play in the CIS.