AOC Rules!

[alfablue]

Re: AOC Rules!

I don’t think you understand just how complex these piping systems are.

If you are going to try to convince me that piping systems are more complex than, say, cars, go for it. I'm an engineer, and can't possibly see that they are nearly as complex as other products that are held to very high standards of reliability.

I recently saw that the Embridge break in western Michigan was caused by corrosion. How in the world could they let that happen???? It's metal, and they control what goes in it, and the environment that it sits in is well known. Not easy, but well known enough that cars now made are robust to the environment in Michigan. For a pipe to fail due to corrosion tells me that there's either incompetence or they are downplaying risks to save money. They can't claim that it was some kind of unknown.

And this pipe going through the Dakotas- it's brand freaking new. How can it fail so quickly??? They know what's going in, they know the environment it sits in. You tell me- is it negligence or just stupidity? Neither of which should have gotten the permit to build it.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: AOC Rules!

By that same theory Wells Fargo shouldn't make car loans to people who might violate traffic laws (simple failures), lest Wells be held liable for someone's bad driving choices (dumb failures) that may cause great harms.

Excellent point.

 

[Handyman]

Re: AOC Rules!

Not sure how the discussion ended up here but I will grudgingly admit that Hovey has a point. If FedEx had a pristine record of hiring pilots, so much so that WF lent them money to expand their fleet, and then afterwards FedEx either hired a bad one or an existing one went downhill, I don't see how WF for all their faults is in any way responsible for any damages. I would also question if the court system would even allow a law like that to exist but I'll let the many legal beagles out here answer that.



I'm not aware of bartenders being criminally charged for overserving somebody and then them getting into an accident? The bar itself will get sued if that's where the person got loaded at however and liability insurance for this very reason tends to be significant in this industry.

Dramshop does allow for such charges. I have to renew my Dramshop testing every year and it is beaten into us.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: AOC Rules!

Excellent point.

No, it's really not. Wells Fargo does not say they are against cars or their drivers.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: AOC Rules!

If you are going to try to convince me that piping systems are more complex than, say, cars, go for it. I'm an engineer, and can't possibly see that they are nearly as complex as other products that are held to very high standards of reliability.

I recently saw that the Embridge break in western Michigan was caused by corrosion. How in the world could they let that happen???? It's metal, and they control what goes in it, and the environment that it sits in is well known. Not easy, but well known enough that cars now made are robust to the environment in Michigan. For a pipe to fail due to corrosion tells me that there's either incompetence or they are downplaying risks to save money. They can't claim that it was some kind of unknown.

And this pipe going through the Dakotas- it's brand freaking new. How can it fail so quickly??? They know what's going in, they know the environment it sits in. You tell me- is it negligence or just stupidity? Neither of which should have gotten the permit to build it.

Because you don’t hear about the pipelines that just work. All you hear about are the ones that don’t. There are probably tens of thousands of miles of pipeline. Statistically there will be a failure. And statistically there are no better ways to transport oil. NONE.

 

[alfablue]

Re: AOC Rules!

Because you don’t hear about the pipelines that just work. All you hear about are the ones that don’t. There are probably tens of thousands of miles of pipeline. Statistically there will be a failure. And statistically there are no better ways to transport oil. NONE.

I understand that they are the best way of transporting oil. Nobody is arguing that at all.

What IS being argued is that they need to be built better. Just being better than in a rail car is not good enough.

Yes, the statistics say that there will be failures. But engineering and science also is capable of reducing the odds, considerably. Which is what everyone here is arguing. The pipeline running through the Dakotas is brand new, yet it's failed already. You can't tell me that it's purely statistics there- this is something where the built in safety factors are so big that the failure rate isn't something that would ever make the news. This isn't hard, it's just expensive.

AOC is attacking WF because they didn't do a good enough job making sure it would be made good enough to meet WF's corporate standard AND that WF claims to be concerned about Global Warming.

 

[mookie1995]

Just read the Wikipedia page on the Ogallala. It’s enormous Something like seven states use it. Including states that produce an assload of corn. That corn feeds all sorts of livestock among other things.

Oh no!
Without corn we’d have no gas!!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: AOC Rules!

Because you don’t hear about the pipelines that just work. All you hear about are the ones that don’t. There are probably tens of thousands of miles of pipeline. Statistically there will be a failure. And statistically there are no better ways to transport oil. NONE.

Sure. I believe in Engineering. I believe in Science. I do not believe in American Capitalism to bring out the best in either..

 

[mookie1995]

Right, the green new deal addresses a lot of this stuff with the job guarantee.

Guaranteed jobs in fracking for the US gov?!?!

 

[trixR4kids]

I understand that they are the best way of transporting oil. Nobody is arguing that at all.

What IS being argued is that they need to be built better. Just being better than in a rail car is not good enough.

Yes, the statistics say that there will be failures. But engineering and science also is capable of reducing the odds, considerably. Which is what everyone here is arguing. The pipeline running through the Dakotas is brand new, yet it's failed already. You can't tell me that it's purely statistics there- this is something where the built in safety factors are so big that the failure rate isn't something that would ever make the news. This isn't hard, it's just expensive.

AOC is attacking WF because they didn't do a good enough job making sure it would be made good enough to meet WF's corporate standard AND that WF claims to be concerned about Global Warming.

It’s not like there weren’t plenty of people saying that the planning and analysis before it was built was questionable as well. It’s not like this is entirely hindsight or unforeseen.

Also this company has a horrible track record

Sunoco Logistics, the future operator of the pipeline, has spilled crude oil from its onshore pipelines more often since 2010 than any other US pipeline operator, with at least 203 leaks disclosed to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration,[110] with a total of 3,406 barrels (143,100 US gal; 541.5 m3) of crude oil spilled.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: AOC Rules!

That's what liability insurance is for, hello.

And you think Wells et al don't verify that all permitting and legal requirements (i.e. liability coverage) are met before cutting a loan check?

If Wells loaned money to someone not meeting the legals, sure, liable.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: AOC Rules!

This pipeline is a great example- it's such a simple device- a pipe-

You really aren't so daft as to think a pipeline is just a pipe. The bill of materials for a single pumping station along a pipeline is close to one million items, including pumps rated for 1000 or more horsepower. The interlocks just to start a pipeline pump rival the interlocks to pull rods on a nuclear reactor.

I don’t think you understand just how complex these piping systems are.

alfa, if dx and I agree about something you probably want to re-evaluate your take.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: AOC Rules!

If FedEx is partially held responsible, they will do a better job finding pilots. Just like if WF was partially held responsible, they would do a better job knowing what they are financing, and make sure whoever builds will do a better job. At some point, companies have to be held liable, to the point of officials going to prison, to reduce the odds of dumb failures. This pipeline is a great example- it's such a simple device- a pipe- yet they have more than their obvious share of failures. Given that they do such a simple job in a simple way, it's clear to me that the builders and operators cut corners to save money. And if the "go out of business" when a failure happens, who gets held responsible? Tax payers. And that's not the way to make sure that failures are avoided.

So we want Wells Fargo to become experts in the Oil and Gas industry?

 

[The Rube]

Re: AOC Rules!

You really aren't so daft as to think a pipeline is just a pipe. The bill of materials for a single pumping station along a pipeline is close to one million items, including pumps rated for 1000 or more horsepower. The interlocks just to start a pipeline pump rival the interlocks to pull rods on a nuclear reactor.



alfa, if dx and I agree about something you probably want to re-evaluate your take.

This. All of this. I agree with DX's take on AOC's bit with WF.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: AOC Rules!

If you are going to try to convince me that piping systems are more complex than, say, cars, go for it. I'm an engineer, and can't possibly see that they are nearly as complex as other products that are held to very high standards of reliability.

Then you have no idea the complexity, and monitoring, and volumes, these systems carry.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: AOC Rules!

This. All of this. I agree with DX's take on AOC's bit with WF.

On the other hand, I can't argue with the take of Wells Fargo claiming to care about the environment, but at the same time...pipelines are by far the safest and best way to transport oil. Railroads and trucks are much worst. I really should do more research into how exactly clean ups are being paid for...when incidents occur like train derailments or broken pipes at rail yards, I am part of a team that responds and the client pays us...in one specific incident I believe most of our costs are covered by the client's insurance so I'm not really sure how this ends up being a public expense.

 

[The Rube]

Re: AOC Rules!

On the other hand, I can't argue with the take of Wells Fargo claiming to care about the environment, but at the same time...pipelines are by far the safest and best way to transport oil. Railroads and trucks are much worst. I really should do more research into how exactly clean ups are being paid for...when incidents occur like train derailments or broken pipes at rail yards, I am part of a team that responds and the client pays us...in one specific incident I believe most of our costs are covered by the client's insurance so I'm not really sure how this ends up being a public expense.

Well, everyone claims to care about the environment. Few actually do. It's marketing. Yeah, I hate it, too. That's the way it is, though. Let's put it simply, I give a loan to you for a car, legit and all. Then you drive drunk and kill someone. I'm now responsible? That's BS.

On the flipside, the Sandy Hook families can now sue the gun makers for that tragedy.

This is a very dangerous slope here......

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: AOC Rules!

And this pipe going through the Dakotas- it's brand freaking new. How can it fail so quickly???

Which pipe? The one that failed in Marshall County, SD? That was Keystone (original) not DAPL. That was Phase 1 (2010) pipe.

That spill was 407,000 gallons. That's 13.5 train cars.

Here's what that looks like when it's an oil train gone wrong and it was more gallons (NTSB says more like 470,000).

Yes, they recognized and isolated a pipeline rupture to be fewer gallons than that horrific train derailment that almost obliterated Casselton, ND. The Keystone control center (in Edmonton!*) recognized a pressure transient and isolated and secured (from Edmonton!) the section that quickly. But even when the isolation valves go shut around the break you're still going to lose control of whatever is between the valves. They lost less than a train load. Without a fire.


*No complexity; just a pipe.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: AOC Rules!

Pipeline like a strong hose, right?

And it's all gravity and Canada looks like it rolls downhill to the gulf when mookie views a map. Up to down!

Quite Easily Done

 

[unofan]

And you think Wells et al don't verify that all permitting and legal requirements (i.e. liability coverage) are met before cutting a loan check?

If Wells loaned money to someone not meeting the legals, sure, liable.

I will try to link to public filings later, but let's just say the liability insurance requirements are probably less strenuous than you seem to think (to the point they're non-existent in 3 of the 4 states the DAPL runs through).