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AOC Rules!
- Thread starter Berkshire BU Fan
- Start date
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: AOC Rules!
"True" anything does not exist. Anywhere.
I'd fight harder to save the good name of socialism but the entire edifice of American political rhetoric is a hundred years out of date. "Capitalism" in the Adam Smith sense is 200 years out of date. "Socialism" in the Saint-Simon sense is 150 years out of date. "Communism" in the Marxist sense is 100 years out of date. Not to mention that all of these ideas were aspirational and theoretical and were obviously never instantiated as real systems because people don't work like digital computers.
The left and right today are moving towards economic systems that don't even have names yet. The right's closest approach is "Fascism" but that is more of a social theory and it ignores the fact that there are wisps of anarchist thought buried down there in that sewer. The left is staggering in the direction of liberal economic inclusiveness, but it's more in reaction to the danger on the right than a goal in itself. Not to mention that the left does not have a coherent way for the educated meritocrats and the perpetual underclass to talk to each other, which is what has prevented us from stopping the rise of Dump's Vile Right.
None of this language is very helpful. It was created for industrializing societies because people were freaking out that all of a sudden everybody was abandoning the farms and moving to factories, and society was collapsing. Those problems no longer exist. Now everybody is being kicked out of the factories and there's no work, anywhere, available anymore. Talking about this in terms of Capitalism and Socialism makes about as much sense as trying to describe the American Revolution in terms of Feudalism.
The next economic revolution is the end of coerced work -- the end of "polite slavery." That will be as dramatic and frightening a transformation as society has ever had, and what we are on the other side of the gulf will have very little resemblance to what we are now. Everything is going to change, from mores to religions to social hierarchies to power structures. 2100 will be more different from 2000 than 2000 was from 1700.
"True" anything does not exist. Anywhere.
I'd fight harder to save the good name of socialism but the entire edifice of American political rhetoric is a hundred years out of date. "Capitalism" in the Adam Smith sense is 200 years out of date. "Socialism" in the Saint-Simon sense is 150 years out of date. "Communism" in the Marxist sense is 100 years out of date. Not to mention that all of these ideas were aspirational and theoretical and were obviously never instantiated as real systems because people don't work like digital computers.
The left and right today are moving towards economic systems that don't even have names yet. The right's closest approach is "Fascism" but that is more of a social theory and it ignores the fact that there are wisps of anarchist thought buried down there in that sewer. The left is staggering in the direction of liberal economic inclusiveness, but it's more in reaction to the danger on the right than a goal in itself. Not to mention that the left does not have a coherent way for the educated meritocrats and the perpetual underclass to talk to each other, which is what has prevented us from stopping the rise of Dump's Vile Right.
None of this language is very helpful. It was created for industrializing societies because people were freaking out that all of a sudden everybody was abandoning the farms and moving to factories, and society was collapsing. Those problems no longer exist. Now everybody is being kicked out of the factories and there's no work, anywhere, available anymore. Talking about this in terms of Capitalism and Socialism makes about as much sense as trying to describe the American Revolution in terms of Feudalism.
The next economic revolution is the end of coerced work -- the end of "polite slavery." That will be as dramatic and frightening a transformation as society has ever had, and what we are on the other side of the gulf will have very little resemblance to what we are now. Everything is going to change, from mores to religions to social hierarchies to power structures. 2100 will be more different from 2000 than 2000 was from 1700.
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trixR4kids
New member
Re: AOC Rules!
Does 5MM not realize that they'll call anything left of Newt Gingrich communist socialist **scary buzzwords**? They cried about Obama being a socialist FFS, they're always going to do that. It's obvious that you're just being completely disingenuous for ideological reasons.
Does 5MM not realize that they'll call anything left of Newt Gingrich communist socialist **scary buzzwords**? They cried about Obama being a socialist FFS, they're always going to do that. It's obvious that you're just being completely disingenuous for ideological reasons.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: AOC Rules!
yep. the label is already out there. you either redefine the word or you get buried by it. in fact the club for growth has a new ad out already against Beto and socialism is one of the themes.
yep. the label is already out there. you either redefine the word or you get buried by it. in fact the club for growth has a new ad out already against Beto and socialism is one of the themes.
trixR4kids
New member
Re: AOC Rules!
LMFAO! Not sure Beto has put his name to any actual policies much less anything socialist.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: AOC Rules!
Which is exactly the point. The jack boot thugs are going to call everything short of shoving the poor into a blender to make a slurry for the 1%'s dogs "TEH SOCIALIZM!!!!!!"
F-ck. Them.
Go to the voters and talk about policies and benefits and the stuff they know works (market-informed socialism) and the stuff they know doesn't work (unrestrained capitalism) from experience.
The right just makes sh-t up, we cannot be influenced by how they play the game except to relentlessly point out their record of corruption, incompetence, greed, mismanagement, and treason. Facts only matter when you teach them to people, and as we have learned from the history of Fox and the Echo Chamber they can lie to their drones with impunity.
Stop being afraid of these f-cks. They are impotent blowhards, cowards, frauds. Their entire act is made of tissue paper and they have no personal honor or intestinal fortitude -- they cry like scalded babies the instant they get a bloody nose.
Aim for the nose. It's fat, bulbous, beet red, and spackled with gin blossoms -- you can't miss it. The right is a mess. Finish them. Come HARD at them, and from the farther left the better. Stop doing their work for them by taking these mincing little academic steps. F-cking take ALL the ground back all the way back to 1968, in one bite.
And then we can start.
Which is exactly the point. The jack boot thugs are going to call everything short of shoving the poor into a blender to make a slurry for the 1%'s dogs "TEH SOCIALIZM!!!!!!"
F-ck. Them.
Go to the voters and talk about policies and benefits and the stuff they know works (market-informed socialism) and the stuff they know doesn't work (unrestrained capitalism) from experience.
The right just makes sh-t up, we cannot be influenced by how they play the game except to relentlessly point out their record of corruption, incompetence, greed, mismanagement, and treason. Facts only matter when you teach them to people, and as we have learned from the history of Fox and the Echo Chamber they can lie to their drones with impunity.
Stop being afraid of these f-cks. They are impotent blowhards, cowards, frauds. Their entire act is made of tissue paper and they have no personal honor or intestinal fortitude -- they cry like scalded babies the instant they get a bloody nose.
Aim for the nose. It's fat, bulbous, beet red, and spackled with gin blossoms -- you can't miss it. The right is a mess. Finish them. Come HARD at them, and from the farther left the better. Stop doing their work for them by taking these mincing little academic steps. F-cking take ALL the ground back all the way back to 1968, in one bite.
And then we can start.
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Re: AOC Rules!
We are largely a regulated form of capitalism. Could regulations be a bit stronger? Sure.
And all forms of ideological rhetoric is counterproductive. We progressives just want the best policy possible...which usually includes capitalism form of economy with a liberal lean.
He does. But at this point its limited to Gingrich listeners. Why have Dems admit to it and greatly expand the audience in the process?
Faar more than Bernie.
----------
I get how advertising socialism wins over the New England vote, but at what point is your guys' plan going to result in winning over middle America (majority of the electoral votes up for grabs) needed to keep Trump out of the white house?
We are largely a regulated form of capitalism. Could regulations be a bit stronger? Sure.
And all forms of ideological rhetoric is counterproductive. We progressives just want the best policy possible...which usually includes capitalism form of economy with a liberal lean.
He does. But at this point its limited to Gingrich listeners. Why have Dems admit to it and greatly expand the audience in the process?
Faar more than Bernie.
----------
I get how advertising socialism wins over the New England vote, but at what point is your guys' plan going to result in winning over middle America (majority of the electoral votes up for grabs) needed to keep Trump out of the white house?
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dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: AOC Rules!
Exactly. It's an incorrect usage and it's an argument against your own position. He's dumb.
Exactly. It's an incorrect usage and it's an argument against your own position. He's dumb.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: AOC Rules!
It's not an argument against your own position. Not in the slightest. If the other side doesn't care what a word means you're not going to convince them by using "better words". Or, as Trump says, the best words.
It's not an argument against your own position. Not in the slightest. If the other side doesn't care what a word means you're not going to convince them by using "better words". Or, as Trump says, the best words.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: AOC Rules!
That's not what dx is saying. He's saying if we use the term "socialism" as part of a pejorative -- "corporate socialism" -- that contributes to the association of socialism with negative connotations, which is the right wing brainwashing project.
Obviously the 33% orcs will think "durr socialism is teh debil hannity told me so durr" no matter what we do. We know that and we're writing them off. F-ck em, they're a lost cause. We're talking about the cognitively capable 67% of the US population. It's a struggle for their hearts and minds.
That's not what dx is saying. He's saying if we use the term "socialism" as part of a pejorative -- "corporate socialism" -- that contributes to the association of socialism with negative connotations, which is the right wing brainwashing project.
Obviously the 33% orcs will think "durr socialism is teh debil hannity told me so durr" no matter what we do. We know that and we're writing them off. F-ck em, they're a lost cause. We're talking about the cognitively capable 67% of the US population. It's a struggle for their hearts and minds.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: AOC Rules!
Thanks. I suck at articulating my position sometimes... ok, a lot of the time. You did it much better.
Thanks. I suck at articulating my position sometimes... ok, a lot of the time. You did it much better.
rufus
rock and roller
Re: AOC Rules!
I understood what you were saying implicitly.
It's those knee-jerk reactionaries who have to jump in to comment after half reading your post that couldn't quite figure out what your point was.
It basically comes down to, if Dems want to win, they can't frame policy positions from the Republican viewpoint.
I understood what you were saying implicitly.
It's those knee-jerk reactionaries who have to jump in to comment after half reading your post that couldn't quite figure out what your point was.
It basically comes down to, if Dems want to win, they can't frame policy positions from the Republican viewpoint.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: AOC Rules!
It's amazing we can't figure that out from the GOP example. Republicans never bother responding to Democratic statements. They full court press their alternative reality 24/7. They pick a lie and stick to it, without any soul-searching, reflection, or buyer's remorse. They close. Their followers are so fully immersed in the lunacy they are not even aware there is a place to stand outside of it to observe it.
It would be beautiful if it weren't for, you know, fascism and lethality.
The Dems should say, "We are going back to the way our economy worked when it worked for everyone. 90%+ taxes on the very rich are not new. Socialized solutions for health care for the needy are not new. Public investment for infrastructure to educate our kids, pump up the economy, and provide the technological backbone of a modern democratic state is not new. What was new was a crackpot scheme to turn all this over to the very rich to run it for our benefit, which crashed and burned and created all our current problems. Now we are returning to normalcy."
That would be my 2020 slogan: "A return to the normal." And then put every one of our most far-reaching utopian liberal ideas into the basket of the normal and put it out there against that fat, disgusting traitor and see who wins.
Spoiler: if we do that we'll win by so much Mississippi and Idaho will be the only red states left.
It's amazing we can't figure that out from the GOP example. Republicans never bother responding to Democratic statements. They full court press their alternative reality 24/7. They pick a lie and stick to it, without any soul-searching, reflection, or buyer's remorse. They close. Their followers are so fully immersed in the lunacy they are not even aware there is a place to stand outside of it to observe it.
It would be beautiful if it weren't for, you know, fascism and lethality.
The Dems should say, "We are going back to the way our economy worked when it worked for everyone. 90%+ taxes on the very rich are not new. Socialized solutions for health care for the needy are not new. Public investment for infrastructure to educate our kids, pump up the economy, and provide the technological backbone of a modern democratic state is not new. What was new was a crackpot scheme to turn all this over to the very rich to run it for our benefit, which crashed and burned and created all our current problems. Now we are returning to normalcy."
That would be my 2020 slogan: "A return to the normal." And then put every one of our most far-reaching utopian liberal ideas into the basket of the normal and put it out there against that fat, disgusting traitor and see who wins.
Spoiler: if we do that we'll win by so much Mississippi and Idaho will be the only red states left.
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rufus
rock and roller
Re: AOC Rules!
Related, this is why Republicans, and a lot of the Democratic big shots and leadership, are afraid of AOC. This is how you combat the Republican framing of all the problems we have today. This is how you relate to the people who may not necessarily be on your side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx4VtjgJZk8&t=133s
Related, this is why Republicans, and a lot of the Democratic big shots and leadership, are afraid of AOC. This is how you combat the Republican framing of all the problems we have today. This is how you relate to the people who may not necessarily be on your side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx4VtjgJZk8&t=133s
rufus
rock and roller
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: AOC Rules!
You grabbed it from the 133 second mark -- that's what that &t flag is at the end of the link. You can just snip that and then the clip will run from the beginning.
You grabbed it from the 133 second mark -- that's what that &t flag is at the end of the link. You can just snip that and then the clip will run from the beginning.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Cynical me thinks you're being generous with that estimate.