Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

[joecct]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

I believe that Hobart is a Liberty League member for other-than-hockey athletics, and they play up in lacrosse. That would pose an interesting conundrum.

Except for Hobart and Skidmore, ALL the LL teams are play-ups. Ask me how a D-III league can sponsor a D-I sport. I have no idea or clue.

 

[joecct]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

Any idea when the meeting is going to take place? Also, I cannot imagine Merrimack or Lowell dropping down, never gonna happen!

IF, IF, IF there is a D-I/II National Collegiate Championship, it makes no difference for UM-L or Merrimack if they are playing up or playing within their division. All games vs. D-I teams would count towards national selection.

Now, look out West, where most of the WCHA is not D-I (after the BTHC, it's just Denver & UND), and many of the CCHA are D-II play-ups. IF IF IF there is an NCC, then the West can reorganize on divisional / monetary resources.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

Any idea when the meeting is going to take place? Also, I cannot imagine Merrimack or Lowell dropping down, never gonna happen!

I totally agree that they mat not want to drop down to DII, but they will have to decide where they can go (league (s), if any where, for all their other sports if the NE -10 gives them an ultimatum of all sports or nothing. This will be a call for the respective presidents, not for coaches, players or fans.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

It's not for the NCAA to fix in a vacuum. They (the NE-10) need to propose some kind of NCAA action/remedy - be proactive instead of reactive... if they don't St. Mike's and St. A's (which are the only two truly competitive DII programs that are playing at the DIII level) will be left out.

I think the action/remedy that will be proposed by NE-10 presidents is for the NCAA grandfather into DIII, those schools that participated in the old DII conference ,pre 1999, and to continue as members of existing DIII leagues as long as they CONTINUE to abide by DIII rules and regs as they pertain to ice hockey.
It is my understanding that the NCAA caused this situation, and what the effected NE-10 members believe is that they,NCAA, should have the responsibility to fix the problem they created.
They also believe that due to the significant expense of moving a program to D I. which appears to be the current and only option, it unfairly puts the schools no win situation.
ie. move to DI or drop to club.

 

[cooperalls]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

I agree that the Presidents and Athletic Directors need to take action and get on the NCAA about this because it has been a joke for several years and it is an absurd rule that a D3 team can move up to D1 in one men's and one women's sport but cannot move up to NCAA Div. II in one men's and women's sport. Maybe if they allowed that rule then some of the best and well funded and supported D3 programs would move up eventually. But they should definitely allow any DII program to move down in men's or women's sport or grandfarther it in. Someone needs to organize something to represent the NE 10 teams and be the spokesperson and help get it done because you are right the NCAA created this mess because again they have people in an administrative role that shouldn't be making decisions they know nothing about. I doubt the NCAA even knows they have 6 D2 hockey teams.

 

[cooperalls]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

I can actually see that happening with the Liberty League because it would bring a lot of media attention to the conference and would get a team in autobid plus they could keep ECAC Non-Conference opponents and rivals together. Then the Ivy League can have their own league. The brain trust running the Northeast 10 should consider doing a league at the D3 level that way a team could get an AQ every year giving the conference national attention in the sport of ice hockey.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

I can actually see that happening with the Liberty League because it would bring a lot of media attention to the conference and would get a team in autobid plus they could keep ECAC Non-Conference opponents and rivals together. Then the Ivy League can have their own league. The brain trust running the Northeast 10 should consider doing a league at the D3 level that way a team could get an AQ every year giving the conference national attention in the sport of ice hockey.

I'm still trying to figure out how a DIII league can sponsor a DI sport, but the NE-10 sponsoring DIII hockey... well, it would be absolutely no different from the current situation. The NCAA absolutely prohibits play-downs, which is the source of this problem anyway. The "no play-up to DII" rule was the reason the DIII championship wass established in 1984, that's old news. The 1999 death of DII was because DII adopted a minimum of 50 DII schools to sponsor a championship, so hockey got left out. (The wording of this rule as I remember it leaves me to believe DIII programs playing up, were it allowed, would not be counted). Thus, all the DII programs not playing up began to do so. The "no play-down" rule is the source of this particular problem. And that is why your idea here would never fly in a pure-DIII environment without the NCAA agreeing to retroactively grandfather the programs in.

Also, they wouldn't get an AQ in a pure DIII environment, because DIII mandates 7 conference members as the minimum for an AQ, and there are 6 DII schools. The only way they would get an AQ was if the NCAA formed an unprecedented DII/DIII National Collegiate Division, because NCCs have a 6-team minimum for an AQ.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

I'd guess the opposite, that the SUNYAC is not going to take any more associate members beyond Mo'ville. They could even encourage Mo'ville to go to the ECAC W and give them their long sought after 7th member. If it happened that way, we'd be down to two Pool C selections.

There is one flaw in your logic. Morrisville is also a SUNYAC associate member in field hockey. This provides the SUNYAC with 7 field hockey teams and thus an automatic berth in that sport. Losing Morrisville means the SUNYAC losses their field hockey AQ. So, there will be some pressure NOT to push Morrisville out as an associate member.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

Not that I personally would want to see it happen (though I would like to see the ECAC-W with 7 teams), but logistically, IMO should Canton go to the ECAC-W, encouraging Potsdam to go to the ECAC-W makes more sense than Morrisville.

There is postively, absolutely no way Potsdam leaves the SUNYAC just for their hockey team. There will be no encouragement whatsoever.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

Certainly SUNYIT (which as a strong athletic commitment) as well as some SUNY schools with limited athletic commitment have gone the way of another league, but from a somewhat biased opinion, the SUNYAC is attractive, as it consistently holds their own (NCAA championship wise), and would be hard pressed not to accept them as a full (all applicable sports) member. Canton has shown a strong commitment to their entire athletic department, they may wade in other waters until the right moment, but I don't see them staying away.

Both SUNYIT and Morrisville were in the SUNYAC, and both left to go to the NEAC. Neither schools, especially SUNYIT, were able to do anything in the SUNYAC in almost all sports. These new 2-year moving to 4-year SUNY schools have found it tough sledding in the SUNYAC with longer established programs. The majority of NEAC consists of just these type of schools -- 2-year schools that recently became 4-year schools, including some other SUNY schools that never even bothered trying to get into the SUNYAC. I suspect Canton is looking at these experiences, and figuring going straight to the NEAC is the way to go. The problem is, the NEAC does not have hockey. Probably why SUNYIT abandoned their idea to build a hockey rink and start a program and obviously why Morrisville had to work at an arrangement to keep their hockey team in the SUNYAC.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

There is one flaw in your logic. Morrisville is also a SUNYAC associate member in field hockey. This provides the SUNYAC with 7 field hockey teams and thus an automatic berth in that sport. Losing Morrisville means the SUNYAC losses their field hockey AQ. So, there will be some pressure NOT to push Morrisville out as an associate member.

But no AQ problem with ice hockey - kick them out for ice hockey because then they'd be back to a nice convenient 8 teams instead an awkward 9, but let them stay in in the field game, because it gives them an AQ. It seems like most conferences add associate members mainly for the purpose of getting an AQ.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

On a somewhat related point on the other side of the great divide.... Chris Lerch reported in the FF blog that the Liberty League is thinking of forming a hockey leauge. The teams would be Clarkson, St. Lawrence, RPI, Union, RIT, and Colgate. I would add Canisius and Niagara to make it an 8 team league. But until I see it on paper or the NCAA Nooz of the Day, I don't believe it.

You're missing the point. Right now the Liberty League has enough members who play D1 hockey to form a standalone D1 hockey conference that will get an AQ. They are not looking to make it a hockey league with other associate members. They are looking at being able to provide a league with their existing members, to keep as many sports as possible within the Liberty League. (On a side note, I also see, thanks to the creation of the Big 10, a realignment of D1 conferences more along the lines of forming as small as a conference as possible just to qualify for an AQ, in order to offset some of the big program leagues like the Big 10.)

As to the other question -- is there anything in NCAA bylaws about D3 conferences sponsoring a D1 league? I wonder if there is. All the stuff I've ever read only talks about institutions sponsoring sports at various levels.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

But no AQ problem with ice hockey - kick them out for ice hockey because then they'd be back to a nice convenient 8 teams instead an awkward 9, but let them stay in in the field game, because it gives them an AQ. It seems like most conferences add associate members mainly for the purpose of getting an AQ.

True, but I see it as an either or in the minds of the SUNYAC. Allow associate members or don't allow them at all.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

Except for Hobart and Skidmore, ALL the LL teams are play-ups. Ask me how a D-III league can sponsor a D-I sport. I have no idea or clue.

Hobart and Skidmore would not be a member of the LL D1 hockey league. They would continue to play D3 hockey in their respective ECAC conference.

 

[joecct]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

Hobart and Skidmore would not be a member of the LL D1 hockey league. They would continue to play D3 hockey in their respective ECAC conference.

No thit. I know that, YOU know that, but the original poster just mentioned Hobart, not Skidmore.

You're missing the point. Right now the Liberty League has enough members who play D1 hockey to form a standalone D1 hockey conference that will get an AQ. They are not looking to make it a hockey league with other associate members. They are looking at being able to provide a league with their existing members, to keep as many sports as possible within the Liberty League. (On a side note, I also see, thanks to the creation of the Big 10, a realignment of D1 conferences more along the lines of forming as small as a conference as possible just to qualify for an AQ, in order to offset some of the big program leagues like the Big 10.)

As to the other question -- is there anything in NCAA bylaws about D3 conferences sponsoring a D1 league? I wonder if there is. All the stuff I've ever read only talks about institutions sponsoring sports at various levels.

Well, I prefer 8 team conferences (28 conference games) vs. 6 team conferences (20 conference games). And Colgate is a member of the Patriot League (D-I), not the Liberty League (D-III), so they have to get at least one affiliate member. If one, why not 2 more?

 

[NUProf]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

No thit. I know that, YOU know that, but the original poster just mentioned Hobart, not Skidmore.


Well, I prefer 8 team conferences (28 conference games) vs. 6 team conferences (20 conference games). And Colgate is a member of the Patriot League (D-I), not the Liberty League (D-III), so they have to get at least one affiliate member. If one, why not 2 more?

A six team conference could play a 25 game schedule - play each opponent 5 times, or a 30 game schedule with a very limited NC schedule

 

[norm1909]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

Both SUNYIT and Morrisville were in the SUNYAC, and both left to go to the NEAC. Neither schools, especially SUNYIT, were able to do anything in the SUNYAC in almost all sports. These new 2-year moving to 4-year SUNY schools have found it tough sledding in the SUNYAC with longer established programs. The majority of NEAC consists of just these type of schools -- 2-year schools that recently became 4-year schools, including some other SUNY schools that never even bothered trying to get into the SUNYAC. I suspect Canton is looking at these experiences, and figuring going straight to the NEAC is the way to go. The problem is, the NEAC does not have hockey. Probably why SUNYIT abandoned their idea to build a hockey rink and start a program and obviously why Morrisville had to work at an arrangement to keep their hockey team in the SUNYAC.

I agree, and for SUNY schools not offering hockey, there is Manhattanville's old conference, the Skyline Conference - SUNY Farmingdale, Purchase, Maritime and Old Westbury.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Any Potential new DIII Programs and the future of the Northeast 10 DII teams?

Well, I prefer 8 team conferences (28 conference games) vs. 6 team conferences (20 conference games). And Colgate is a member of the Patriot League (D-I), not the Liberty League (D-III), so they have to get at least one affiliate member. If one, why not 2 more?

Forgot about Colgate. So, yeah, the LL would have to bring in at least one associate member in order to meet the six-team quota.

It doesn't matter what you like. It matters what makes sense for the new leagues forming. And if they can logically keep it to six, then I think they will for my aforementioned reasoning.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

I agree, and for SUNY schools not offering hockey, there is Manhattanville's old conference, the Skyline Conference - SUNY Farmingdale, Purchase, Maritime and Old Westbury.

Good point. Of course, geographically, that doesn't work for some of the upstate schools.

There is actually only one SUNY school that went straight to the NEAC -- Cobleskill. The NEAC has a lot of the small Penn State campuses.

The Skyline has more of the "smaller" SUNY schools.

 

[jemica]

Re: Canton

Re: Canton

With DII teams in limbo, have any players committed(I know) to attending these schools?