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America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I didnt neg rep you...I need to spread before I give you anymore plus I always sign it :D

LOL.

Was about to comment on an increase in anon neg rep lately when I remembered that I briefly gave the "three little pigs" amnesty. Nice to know they've been screaming the whole time while on Ignore. :D

(Actually hoping it's just one guy with three names, particularly since "they" spell the same words wrong... :cool: )
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Well I am guessing that Arn Anderson will DDT someone or hit them with a chair and Rick fllair will hit someone in the nuts, poke them in the eye then fall flat on his face before cheating and using a figurefour leglock to win the tag team titles!

Oh did you not mean those horsemen?

*slow applause*


WHOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

And still, no one is willing to talk about the actual text of America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009. I guess it's too difficult to defend the actual text of HR 3200, huh? For those of you on the fence, keep that in mind if you're wondering about the legitimacy of my one post that was on topic in this thread. :)

Anyway... Ronald Reagan also has an opinion on HR 3200. Let me share his opinion delivered 48 years ago, in a 1961 speech:

(EDIT- If you'd rather listen than read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs)

As if we’re not already overextended enough financially, the issue of National Health Care is now on the table once more for a vote. Here’s some perspective you might find interesting.

Now back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket, said the American people would never vote for socialism. But he said under the name of liberalism the American people will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.

One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it.

Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it. We had an example of this. Under the Truman administration it was proposed that we have a compulsory health insurance program for all people in the United States, and, of course, the American people unhesitatingly rejected this.

Let’s take a look at social security itself. Again, very few of us disagree with the original premise that there should be some form of savings that would keep destitution from following unemployment by reason of death, disability or old age. And to this end, social security was adopted, but it was never intended to supplant private savings, private insurance, pension programs of unions and industries.

Now in our country under our free enterprise system we have seen medicine reach the greatest heights that it has in any country in the world. Today, the relationship between patient and doctor in this country is something to be envied any place. The privacy, the care that is given to a person, the right to chose a doctor, the right to go from one doctor to the other.

But let’s also look from the other side, at the freedom the doctor loses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. The doctor begins to lose freedoms; it’s like telling a lie, and one leads to another. First you decide that the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government. But then the doctors aren’t equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him you can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

This is a freedom that I wonder whether any of us have the right to take from any human being. All of us can see what happens once you establish the precedent that the government can determine a man’s working place and his working methods, determine his employment. From here it is a short step to all the rest of socialism, to determining his pay and pretty soon your children won’t decide when they’re in school where they will go or what they will do for a living. They will wait for the government to tell them where they will go to work and what they will do.

What can we do about this? Well, you and I can do a great deal. We can write to our congressmen and our senators. We can say right now that we want no further encroachment on these individual liberties and freedoms. And at the moment, the key issue is, we do not want socialized medicine.

Former Representative Halleck of Indiana has said, “When the American people want something from Congress, regardless of its political complexion, if they make their wants known, Congress does what the people want.”

So write, and if your representative writes back to you and tells you that he or she too is for free enterprise, that we have these great services and so forth, that must be performed by government, don’t let them get away with it. Show that you have not been convinced. Write a letter right back and tell them that you believe in government economy and fiscal responsibility; that you know governments don’t tax to get the money the need; governments will always find a need for the money they get and that you demand the continuation of our free enterprise system. You and I can do this. The only way we can do it is by writing to our congressmen even we believe that he is on our side to begin with. Write to strengthen his hand. Give him the ability to stand before his colleagues in Congress and say “I have heard from my constituents and this is what they want.”

Write those letters now; call your friends and them to write them. If you don’t, this program I promise you, will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow, and behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country. Until, one day, as Normal Thomas said we will awake to find that we have socialism. And if you don’t do this and if I don’t do it, one of these days we are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.
 
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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

He has an interesting setup, then he finally gets to why he's opposed to "Socialized" Medicine:
But let’s also look from the other side, at the freedom the doctor loses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. The doctor begins to lose freedoms; it’s like telling a lie, and one leads to another. First you decide that the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government. But then the doctors aren’t equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him you can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

This is a freedom that I wonder whether any of us have the right to take from any human being. All of us can see what happens once you establish the precedent that the government can determine a man’s working place and his working methods, determine his employment. From here it is a short step to all the rest of socialism, to determining his pay and pretty soon your children won’t decide when they’re in school where they will go or what they will do for a living. They will wait for the government to tell them where they will go to work and what they will do.

That's quite the little straw man drawn up there. Of course, it really has nothing to do with the bill at hand (That's not Reagan's fault, he's dead). Not sure how one equates creating a new insurance option with a dictation that doctors can only have so many patients, and cities can only have so many doctors. Seems like quite a stretch. Perhaps you, the provider of Reagan's perspective, can underline exactly how on Earth you got from point A to point B on that one.

Of course, its amusing to see his slippery slope argument in place. Get the government involved in medicine, and before you know it, your kids are robots! When you listen to the audio on this, can you hear his tin foil hat rustling in the background?
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Look, there are nuanced arguments against Obamacare, but you're not going to get them from CK or NRO. It's a little like asking Michael Moore what he thinks of Sarah Palin. ;)

It doesn't help that the only arguments getting press are the False Dichotomy ones. Having a legit national debate would help, but nobody's heart is in it.

It's disheartening, because eventually -- 2009, 2013, 2017, whatever -- it will pass and just become another fairly boring and uncontroversial part of the safety net, and we should be getting a start on how to analyze and evaluate it. Instead, the opponents are drawing up their battle lines as deny, deflect, delay, like always. Social security, medicare, estate tax, energy conservation, it's always the same 3-chords: the sky is falling and we're all going to be Slaves of the State.
 
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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Social security, medicare, estate tax, energy conservation, it's always the same 3-chords: the sky is falling and we're all going to be Slaves of the State.

Yeah, but why let facts and reason get in the way of blind assertations reported as fact? Especially when its done in amusing and sarcastic ways?
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

He has an interesting setup, then he finally gets to why he's opposed to "Socialized" Medicine:


That's quite the little straw man drawn up there. Of course, it really has nothing to do with the bill at hand (That's not Reagan's fault, he's dead). Not sure how one equates creating a new insurance option with a dictation that doctors can only have so many patients, and cities can only have so many doctors. Seems like quite a stretch. Perhaps you, the provider of Reagan's perspective, can underline exactly how on Earth you got from point A to point B on that one.

Of course, its amusing to see his slippery slope argument in place. Get the government involved in medicine, and before you know it, your kids are robots! When you listen to the audio on this, can you hear his tin foil hat rustling in the background?

I can explain to you quite easily why you're befuddled. It's because you haven't bothered to take a look at the bill you're defending. If you did, you'd realize what an ignorant thing to say is.

Informing yourself before speaking: You should try it sometime. :rolleyes:

Anyone care to take me up on a side bet? Let's bet on the over/under for the number of posts it takes for a liberal to actually talk about HR 3200 itself. And not like the post of this yahoo - if it's clear and obvious they don't know what's in the bill, then it doesn't count - I guess I should say talk about HR 3200 intelligently, not out of ignorance.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I can explain to you quite easily why you're befuddled. It's because you haven't bothered to take a look at the bill you're defending. If you did, you'd realize what an ignorant thing to say is.

Informing yourself before speaking: You should try it sometime. :rolleyes:

Anyone care to take me up on a side bet? Let's bet on the over/under for the number of posts it takes for a liberal to actually talk about HR 3200 itself. And not like the post of this yahoo - if it's clear and obvious they don't know what's in the bill, then it doesn't count - I guess I should say talk about HR 3200 intelligently, not out of ignorance.

*Yawn*

Well, your name-calling and whiny elitest attitude is amusing and all, but if you're really going to throw accusations like that around, then try actually saying something. Is there a part of the bill you object to? Point it out. Instead, you're just whining about nobody reading it, then mentioning nothing about what's in there.

How about this: lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you're the only person around who's actually read anything contained here:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

Now, since you're the keeper of all knowledge, please, by all means, point out exactly where it is that the bill is dictating anything that resembles this:

First you decide that the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government. But then the doctors aren’t equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him you can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

My recommendation would be to start with the sectiosn pertaining to health counseling. I'm sure its as close as you could possibly get. Please, oh keeper of all knowlege, inform your peons of your great knowledge.

And then grow up. No one likes the crying kid in the sandbox wondering why no one is playing with him.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

BTW, where is Dayton Street? :confused:
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Here you go Les. I am a man of my word. Sanitized and cleansed of all negative vibes towards anyone on the left.

So you take others to task for avoiding intelligent and non-inflammatory debate, yet your talking points not only tosses out, "half a brain" and other condescending references at will, but there's not one single specific piece of the legislation referenced in your commentary. You criticize liberals for not wanting to talk specifics even though your rant neglected to cite a single word from the proposal?

FYI - I do not ask as someone that currently backs this proposal but as of yet you haven't earned that self-appointed pedestal on which you stand. :)
 
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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I can explain to you quite easily why you're befuddled. It's because you haven't bothered to take a look at the bill you're defending. If you did, you'd realize what an ignorant thing to say is.

Informing yourself before speaking: You should try it sometime. :rolleyes:

Anyone care to take me up on a side bet? Let's bet on the over/under for the number of posts it takes for a liberal to actually talk about HR 3200 itself. And not like the post of this yahoo - if it's clear and obvious they don't know what's in the bill, then it doesn't count - I guess I should say talk about HR 3200 intelligently, not out of ignorance.

You're going to have to quote chapter and verse of the bill for them. You'll find that many of those on this forum that lean to the left don't want to have to read a bill/book/document that is being discussed. They are willing to argue about it all day long; just don't expect them to actually read it. (There are some exceptions of course.)
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

You'll find that many of those on this forum that lean to the left don't want to have to read a bill/book/document that is being discussed. They are willing to argue about it all day long; just don't expect them to actually read it. (There are some exceptions of course.)

Because that's a significant difference between the left and the right...

Too many political posters from both sides just play Mad Libs -- they never get past the (R) or (D) -- it might as well be (UNH) vs (BC). :D
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I can explain to you quite easily why you're befuddled. It's because you haven't bothered to take a look at the bill you're defending. If you did, you'd realize what an ignorant thing to say is.

Informing yourself before speaking: You should try it sometime. :rolleyes:

Anyone care to take me up on a side bet? Let's bet on the over/under for the number of posts it takes for a liberal to actually talk about HR 3200 itself. And not like the post of this yahoo - if it's clear and obvious they don't know what's in the bill, then it doesn't count - I guess I should say talk about HR 3200 intelligently, not out of ignorance.

Jesus the next time you make a post that brings value to the discussion will be the first time...

But lets get the ground rules...what counts as intelligently? My guess is anyone who disagrees with you is just a yahoo so do people need to think the bill is trash and Obama is satan for you to accept their opinion?

Better question, why should anyone feel the need to defend the bill to the likes of you...you give trolls a bad name :D Oh well, you can join Rover on the ignore list! CONGRATS!
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

You're going to have to quote chapter and verse of the bill for them. You'll find that many of those on this forum that lean to the left don't want to have to read a bill/book/document that is being discussed. They are willing to argue about it all day long; just don't expect them to actually read it. (There are some exceptions of course.)

So then I gather you read all 1100 pages of HR 3200 then Bill? Cause if not then I think the word is hypocrit! :D
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

You're going to have to quote chapter and verse of the bill for them.

Hey Bill, I know way more about quantum physics than you do. I've got this book I've read front to back and understand everything in it. If you want to discuss it you'll have to read it yourself, but suffice it to say that I know way more than you do and anyone with a half a brain would agree with that.

That is the gist of my criticism of his commentary. Don't assail others for failing to study up on a bill while simultaneously refusing to give specific reasons why the bill will not work.

And I repeat for you Bill - I don't support this legislation but I'm not about to jump on gregg's back if he can't give tangible reasons to being an opponent.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

What will HR 3200 entail? You decide. The first link is a conservative organization's list of "gems" from the bill that are somewhere on the scale of sketchy to downright alarming.

(I think a disclaimer would be wise: I already know the exact angle the lefties are going to use to discredit the organization's fears - because let's face it, the 80% or so of the world's population that believes in a higher being are delusional and unstable, they could never, ever have any legitimate concerns even if they cited everything down to the page numbers, right? ;) Seriously though, I could care less about the opinions of those people. This post is for people who aren't completely close-minded.)

The second link is the text of HR 3200 itself, all 1000+ pages of it -so you can judge for yourself if HR 3200 is overreaching and invading your private life or not.

http://www.lc.org/media/9980/attachments/healthcare_overview_obama_072909.pdf

www.docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

Personally, I think it is every good American's job to be very outspoken in being 100% against this very unAmerican trillion-dollar piece of legislation. Insidious, nefarious, irresponsibe, and shades of 1984 are all phrases that come to mind when I think of HR 3200.

Absolutely, we need healthcare reform. But all that's needed is tort reform, not this abomination that Obama and his radical left cronies are trying to force upon Americans against their will.

I'm not even gonna try to read through this thread - so I'm sure some of this has already been said but then again, it's worth repeating. Here's my thoughts, in no particular order.

First of all, in general terms, bureacracies suck at running businesses. Outside of the DC beltway, everyone with half a brain knows the free market is infinitely better at delivering services than government. Amtrak is an inconvenient example of how pathetic of an entrepeneur Uncle Sam is, which is why HR 3200 supporters dismiss it without any intelligent response. And supporters completely ignore failed examples of socialized healthcare schemes in place today. We've all heard how bad Canada's socialized healthcare is. And then there's socialized healthcare in America. 30 to 45 days on average for a veteran to be seen at a VA hospital. 50 to 60 days on average for someone to be seen under the Massachusetts experiment with socialism in the medical field. This is compared to 10 to 12 days for Americans that use the free market system. You need less than half a brain to decide which way is better.

It makes me laugh when supporters mention that America spends far more on healthcare than other countries. It really shows just how foolish supporters of HR 3200 are. So they want to spend well over a trillion dollars on top of what we are already spending? Let me rephrase: Supporters of HR 3200 say we should spend >$1,000,000,000,000 in order to get private sector healthcare costs under control. Someone's a moron here, either me for not understanding that logic or them for using that logic. Can I get some help here please? :rolleyes:

Not to mention the timing of this full court press for socialized healthcae is just downright stupid and irresponsible of Obama. North Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, the economy, Iran, dependence on foreign oil. There are so many things that healthcare reform should be taking a back seat to. Smarten up, Obama - apply your all-knowing and infinite wisdom to issues that are actually urgent and pressing.

And then you get into the specifics of HR 3200. It's shocking to see just how much those arrogant politicians in Washington look down on people like you and me. While the conservative group whose website I cited may have overly alarmist interpretations on some of the specifics (or quite possibly not), it is quite clear that the cronies down in DC have no respect for the average American's right to make their own medical decisions and show undisguised contempt for the average American's privacy rights.



  • - It isn't clear to me whether or not this bill gives the bureacrats the right or not to take money out of my bank account. It is plain as day though that this bill gives the federal government the right to get realtime snapshots of my financial worth and financial activity. This is outrageous government intrusion. Realtime ability also can help them keep tabs on the general whereabouts of all Americans that use credit and debit cards for most purchases. Shades of 1984, scary.


  • - HR 3200 DOES ration healthcare. Those that deny this are either lying or hopelessly naive. You aren't allowed to make decisions on what and how much treatment you can get. Your doctor doesn't make those decisions either. He goes by a manual written by a team of bureacrats in Washington.


  • - HR 3200 definitely puts the screws to the private sector, and it will probably destroy the private sector in time. Punitive taxes to employers who use the private section, provisions for auto-enrolling Americans onto the socialized healthcare plan when they switch jobs, there's alot of stuff in there that punishes employers and employees who don't embrace Obama's socialized healthcare plan.

Those are just a few gems, and there are so many more.....

But hey. Maybe politicians do know what's best for you and me after all. Maybe we do need socialized healthcare but we're just too stupid to realize it. So it begs the question - if HR 3200 is such a blessing, why are the none of the Congressmen and Senators willing to give up their own government healthcare plan? Hmmmm....

The good news is that the American people were on the ball with this one. Once word got out about the rationing and the government making the healthcare decisions for individual Americans, people started fighting back. Through town hall meetings across the country we're making it clear to those corrupt DC politicians that voting for HR 3200 may well end their political career.

Don't be fooled by the Obama town hall meetings - those were all staged. Go on youtube and look at Obama's town hall meeting in Portsmouth NH. Those questions he was asked couldn't be more sugar-coated if they were packaged in a Krispy Kreme box. That 15-year-old girl with the "mean signs" question was the daughter of Obama activists by the way. Isn't it quite the coincidence that although less than 1/4 of Americans support HR 3200, 100% of the people in that auditorium seemed to support it? How disrespectful to the American people (not to mention cowardly) that this guy packed the auditorium with his supporters instead of letting the average American in.

But I digress. Let that buffoon feel good about himself by insulating himself from us dirty commoners. The Congressman and the Senators are who we need to focus on. I'm telling everyone I see that they would be doing a great service to our country and to each other to take a half hour out of what remains of the summer and call, write, or email your Congressional delegation and tell them to vote against HR 3200. Keep their feet to the fire, and we'll win this one! :)

HR 3200 FUN FACT: Think free market healthcare is expensive? HR 3200 is over 1000 pages long and if enacted, the cost will be over $1 BILLION per page of text.


FACT CHECK: A notorious analysis of the House health care bill contains 48 claims. Twenty-six of them are false and the rest mostly misleading. Only four are true.


looks like gregg didnt READ THE BILL
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

WELL TO GET TO THE SUBJECT,
It seems to me that we have two opposing parties spouting drivel but there are a few facts we all need to keep in mind.
1. absent any action, health care could very likely be too expensive for most companies to continue to buy for the employees.
2. we don't have a lot of extra money floating around, given the huge deficits we run.
3. the Chinese are buying all our bonds.
4. thus since the Chinese are rich and we are poor,we should have whatever plan the chinese have.;)
5. that way we could enjoy longer life, fewer worries and more free time to chase members of the opposite sex..
 
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