America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

[St. Clown]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

The rationing thing may give me a coronary. WE HAVE RATIONING!!!!!!!!

Rationing done in the private sector can be overcome by finding other providers. When you have a single provider, that option has been removed. As you said, some of your patients have been in situations where they had a really bad year of coverage from their insurance providers, but there's the chance to find a better insurance plan in the future. If we allow our country to move into a single provider system, there is no hope for a better insurance plan in the future.

And with a complete lack of segue:

Aside from that, I still fail to see where in the Constitution the Federal Government has the power to become an insurance provider. I can't seem to find that in any of the enumerated powers.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Rationing done in the private sector can be overcome by finding other providers. When you have a single provider, that option has been removed. As you said, some of your patients have been in situations where they had a really bad year of coverage from their insurance providers, but there's the chance to find a better insurance plan in the future. If we allow our country to move into a single provider system, there is no hope for a better insurance plan in the future.

And with a complete lack of segue:

Aside from that, I still fail to see where in the Constitution the Federal Government has the power to become an insurance provider. I can't seem to find that in any of the enumerated powers.

Nothing in the current legislation makes us a single provider system.

As for the Constitution our elected officials have been wiping their *** with it for over 50 years so don't expect it to change now. You won't find anything about NCLB in it either by the way.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Nothing in the current legislation makes us a single provider system.

Yet.

 

[leswp1]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Yet.

This is a weak answer. It would not be in the best interest of the gov't to be the only provider.

On an aside- after hearing the slippery slope argument for the better part of my adult life- does anyone know of an instance where one law really lead to another that was irretrievably changed. I know there was prohibition but that was repealed. I have heard it for guns, drugs, healthcare, the war, etc. I have yet to think of something that didn't self correct.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Interestingly, my Dad is a vet and loves his VA care. He is savy and very picky. In some cases the care folks get with the VA is very superior to what they can access out here. There are horror stories too but I aouldn't malign the whole system.!

Thank you for your counter-point. As someone very connected to the VA system, I've felt the frequency of problems previously asserted were greatly exaggerated.

Unfortunately, the majority of your post will be ignore by those hellbent on destroying the plan merely for who has presented it, rather than whether or not they have determined it actually has merit or not. I'm still not convinced either way but am willing to open my eyes and ears to rational discourse.

Sadly, too many people have already made up their mind because of either what they want to believe or led they should believe. Case in point people ignoring the very well stated commentaries I just previously cited.

 

[Slap Shot]

Yet.

And gay marriage hasn't ruined the 'sancity' of the pure and wonderful world of marriage we currently endure.

Yet.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

This is a weak answer. It would not be in the best interest of the gov't to be the only provider.

On an aside- after hearing the slippery slope argument for the better part of my adult life- does anyone know of an instance where one law really lead to another that was irretrievably changed. I know there was prohibition but that was repealed. I have heard it for guns, drugs, healthcare, the war, etc. I have yet to think of something that didn't self correct.

You can find the sound bites of the proponents cheering on the idea that a single-payer health system is on its way. Pelosi has a sound bite, she's the one that sticks out most to me. This is a stepping stone.

The government is "reforming" health insurance providers to force them to accept lesser fees while providing more services. Rover's pointed to that numerous times. If I tell you, les, that you have to provide more hours in the clinic, but I'm going to cut your pay by X%, are you going to continue providing care or are you going to look for another line of work? Well, you might as you might see it as not having any other option for work. But capital is portable.

Eventually these companies will be bled dry. As that happens, more and more people move to the "public option." Eventually there's a critical mass question for the remaining providers out there. They either fold shop entirely or retool their services. If this law passes, at best the remaining insurance companies still providing any sort of health insurance product will have moved to something resembling medi-gap coverage. That's if we're lucky.

There are ways to solve the lack of insured people without resorting to more Federal involvement. Put pressure on your states to move away from the current health insurance model to something that is *actually insurance.* What we have now is prepaid medical services.

Go back to the days when users of health care would pay for their own annual visits and move insurance back to covering catastrophic events such as ER visits and surgical procedures. Medicine cost less as there was actual economic incentive for the adults to play the role of adults and not take Junior into the clinic because he coughed five times in two days. Reduce the frivolous demand, and prices for real medical attention will fall.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

And gay marriage hasn't ruined the 'sancity' of the pure and wonderful world of marriage we currently endure.

Yet.

And the award for Coming Out of Left Field with Non-Sequitors goes to.....drum roll please.....

 

[leswp1]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Thank you for your counter-point. As someone very connected to the VA system, I've felt the frequency of problems previously asserted were greatly exaggerated.

Unfortunately, the majority of your post will be ignore by those hellbent on destroying the plan merely for who has presented it, rather than whether or not they have determined it actually has merit or not. I'm still not convinced either way but am willing to open my eyes and ears to rational discourse.

Ditto. On occasion I have changed what I have thought after reading stuff in the politico threads here. I would love to hear rational discourse from either side. In this instance I truly have no idea what to think except the rabid folks on either side make me crazy with their illogical logic.

I am more worried about nuts and bolts stuff than the silly rationing thing or the death squads. I want to hear how they are going to deal with the truly basic things like access (we do not have enough primary care folks in the pipe line- only 9% of the med students are picking this), medication issues- pharm companies are going to kick and scream and drag us down, who is going to look at evidence based protocols, what they are going to do about promoting prevention in the public sector to decrease need (where are the public service ads like we had when we were kids about health related issues? they were pretty effective to me) etc. An honest assessment of both systems- pro's and cons would be nice- so they could formulate what is falling down. what is needed and what resources are available. (yeah, and my fairy godmother will be with me tonight).....

These issues are boring to folks who need to flame but are the stuff that really needs to be pounded out. Mass didn't do this and we are not OK because of it.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

1. I agree that the public plans are bloated. I do not agree that removing them is the answer.

I didn't say removing them was the answer.

Interestingly, my Dad is a vet and loves his VA care. He is savy and very picky. In some cases the care folks get with the VA is very superior to what they can access out here. There are horror stories too but I aouldn't malign the whole system.

Too many horror stories.

Why are you, a vet, any different than my patients who have paid medicare/medicaid taxes for years? I do not say this as a hit on vets. I say this because you went into this knowing you would be taken care of if anything happened. The people have paid into the system for years and they too feel like they are owed something.

Again, you're barking up the wrong tree on this. I'm not calling for an end to Medicaid and Medicare, just a revamp to eliminate the rampant fraud and waste found within.

The rationing thing may give me a coronary. WE HAVE RATIONING!!!!!!!!

And you find this acceptable, or even desirable, considering the bill laid before us?

 

[walrus]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

An honest assessment of both systems- pro's and cons would be nice- so they could formulate what is falling down. what is needed and what resources are available. (yeah, and my fairy godmother will be with me tonight).....

Honest assessment, like thats going to happen

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Honest assessment, like thats going to happen

You're an elitist for even suggesting it. A substantive argument is anti-democratic -- what really matters is the rage of Everyman.

 

[leswp1]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I didn't say removing them was the answer.

Too many horror stories.



Again, you're barking up the wrong tree on this. I'm not calling for an end to Medicaid and Medicare, just a revamp to eliminate the rampant fraud and waste found within.



And you find this acceptable, or even desirable, considering the bill laid before us?

I may die of shame- I think we are sort of in agreement about some things. As to the current bill- read every post I wrote. I don't know enough about the bill to go either way.

I am frustrated that no one wants to look at what it says, they want to rant about things that are obvious distortions to people who actually work in healthcare. This goes to either side, they both are coming across as idiots. They have picked a few points and gone off like unreasonable teenagers on a hormone rage- the 'death panel' is a good example. If you actually read the language it is what is already supposed to happen already. It is not all that controversial except if someone has whipped you into a paranoid froth and you read it assuming they want to kill someone and this is the sneaky way of letting it happen.

Honest assessment, like thats going to happen

I believe the fairy godmother was mentioned

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

This is a weak answer. It would not be in the best interest of the gov't to be the only provider.

Sure it is. The gov't is all about control. If they control your healthcare they control you.

On an aside- after hearing the slippery slope argument for the better part of my adult life- does anyone know of an instance where one law really lead to another that was irretrievably changed. I know there was prohibition but that was repealed. I have heard it for guns, drugs, healthcare, the war, etc. I have yet to think of something that didn't self correct.

There isn't even a slippery slope with this one. Its in the bill that if you change anything to do with your employment or your company changes your status you are automatically put into the gov't system.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I may die of shame- I think we are sort of in agreement about some things.

One might say that this statement lacks tact. Am I supposed to feel awesome about this - that you feel ASHAMED to agree with me? Good God. Slap Shot and I rarely agree on anything, but when we do I'd say that makes me happy, not ASHAMED. Christ.

I am frustrated that no one wants to look at what it says, they want to rant about things that are obvious distortions to people who actually work in healthcare.

Just as an FYI - the bill's over 1000 pages long, but I've been taking a look through it nonetheless.

 

[Slap Shot]

And the award for Coming Out of Left Field with Non-Sequitors goes to.....drum roll please.....

Did you need me to draw a picture?

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

You can find the sound bites of the proponents cheering on the idea that a single-payer health system is on its way. Pelosi has a sound bite, she's the one that sticks out most to me. This is a stepping stone.

The government is "reforming" health insurance providers to force them to accept lesser fees while providing more services. Rover's pointed to that numerous times. If I tell you, les, that you have to provide more hours in the clinic, but I'm going to cut your pay by X%, are you going to continue providing care or are you going to look for another line of work? Well, you might as you might see it as not having any other option for work. But capital is portable.

Eventually these companies will be bled dry. As that happens, more and more people move to the "public option." Eventually there's a critical mass question for the remaining providers out there. They either fold shop entirely or retool their services. If this law passes, at best the remaining insurance companies still providing any sort of health insurance product will have moved to something resembling medi-gap coverage. That's if we're lucky.

There are ways to solve the lack of insured people without resorting to more Federal involvement. Put pressure on your states to move away from the current health insurance model to something that is *actually insurance.* What we have now is prepaid medical services.

What I've also said numerous times is that a public option need not be in the final draft, and most likely won't be. If you wanted me to give specific predictions on a reconcilliation bill, I'd say the non-profit cooperatives get set up instead (not sure what your view on those are) and the bill gets paid for via a tax on insurance companies with expense plans as in the Senate bill. The President mollifies the liberals by saying he'll revisit the public option later if savings aren't being achieved. I also predict that the bill only received the backing of Snowe and Collins for the GOP, as Grassley's idiotic "death squad" comments lines him up firmly in the idiot camp (the Palin's we'll call them )

Regarding single payer over the long term, I thought Obama was more honest than most would expect at the town hall in NH by saying that this option wouldn't happen not because he opposed it but because it just wasn't feasible to completely redo how people get their insurance (mostly employer based now). That means the only complaint is the aforementioned "slippery slope" argument which is way too speculative. As has been mentioned, gay marriage was supposed to cause all heterosexual males to switch teams. Aside from a few USCHO conservatives, I've yet to see that slippery slope come about.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Sure it is. The gov't is all about control. If they control your healthcare they control you.



There isn't even a slippery slope with this one. Its in the bill that if you change anything to do with your employment or your company changes your status you are automatically put into the gov't system.

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Sure it is. The gov't is all about control. If they control your healthcare they control you.

Why isn't this as true of the private sector? If there's a gun to my head, what does it matter whether it is corporate or government?

If it is government, at least it's my gun and I control it.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Why isn't this as true of the private sector? If there's a gun to my head, what does it matter whether it is corporate or government?

If it is government, at least it's my gun and I control it.

If its private sector you hold the gun. You are able to go to someone else. The gov't is the only one who can legally force you to do anything.

In the private sector each individual controls their fate. With the gov't you're just one of many others who holds the same gun so don't be surprised when its turned on you.