America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

[Red Cloud]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

If its private sector you hold the gun. You are able to go to someone else. The gov't is the only one who can legally force you to do anything.

In the private sector each individual controls their fate. With the gov't you're just one of many others who holds the same gun so don't be surprised when its turned on you.

Kepler's inevitably pathetic response will be that ZOMG NO YOU DONT CONTROL YOUR FATE IN THE PRYVATE SECTUR EIHTER.

But I like what you've said here about many people holding the same gun. In the private sector, if you don't like what your plan is doing, you can get a different plan. Not the case under government. It's their way, or the highway.

 

[pardonme]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Except you can't really just go out and get another plan b/c your insurance is generally paid for and chosen for you by your employer, and its exorbitantly expensive to get another plan on your own.

 

[MattS]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Except you can't really just go out and get another plan b/c your insurance is generally paid for and chosen for you by your employer, and its exorbitantly expensive to get another plan on your own.

At least there is a choice. No matter how they may be. Part of the reason I work where I do is because they have very good health insurance that is relatively cheap. I made more money at my previous company but their health insurance sucked. So I moved on.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Except you can't really just go out and get another plan b/c your insurance is generally paid for and chosen for you by your employer, and its exorbitantly expensive to get another plan on your own.

So find another job if you don't like the plans your employer is offering, then. Or, go out and get your own coverage.

Can't do that if the government's running it, though.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Except you can't really just go out and get another plan b/c your insurance is generally paid for and chosen for you by your employer, and its exorbitantly expensive to get another plan on your own.

Exactly. Not sure what country MinnFan and Red Cloud are speaking of, but for those of us residing in the United States with employer insurance, your options are what they give you. Now you can quit your job if you don't like it, but it seems more likely being on Medicaid is not as lucrative as being employed, so that wouldn't make sense from a cost perspective. However, the point remains, you don't have unlimited choice in the private sector, especially in this economy.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Very good, on point article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Except you can't really just go out and get another plan b/c your insurance is generally paid for and chosen for you by your employer, and its exorbitantly expensive to get another plan on your own.

and who set up the system that way?

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Exactly. Not sure what country MinnFan and Red Cloud are speaking of, but for those of us residing in the United States with employer insurance, your options are what they give you. Now you can quit your job if you don't like it, but it seems more likely being on Medicaid is not as lucrative as being employed, so that wouldn't make sense from a cost perspective. However, the point remains, you don't have unlimited choice in the private sector, especially in this economy.

Then why not give individuals the same deductions that companies get on healthcare? Seems like a more sensible solution than a massive gov't instusion.

 

[ScottM]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Except you can't really just go out and get another plan b/c your insurance is generally paid for and chosen for you by your employer, and its exorbitantly expensive to get another plan on your own.

No body forces you to take your employer's plan. I know a number of folks around here, especially right out of school, who opt out and get their own major medical or high-deductible plan. These are people who generally don't use/need frequent attention and manage their own health pretty well. I think one of the downsides of employer-paid plans is that they create perverse incentives for people to visit a Dr. for every sniffle and allow themselves to get fat, lazy and happy since premiums are usually the same for frequent users and infrequent users. If premiums were based on actual use as well as risk factors such as smoking, drinking, etc.

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Some interesting poll numbers from Rasmussen today:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ministration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

Forty-four percent (44%) of voters now trust Republicans more than Democrats on health care. Forty-one percent (41%) trust the Democrats more. While those numbers are essentially a toss-up, they represent a significant shift in opinion. It’s the first time Republicans have held any advantage on health care in years of tracking the issue. In June, the Democrats held a ten-point advantage on health care.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low

Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low as just 42% of U.S. voters now favor the plan. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that opposition to the plan has increased to 53%, up nine points since late June.

Most notable, however, is the opposition among voters not affiliated with either party. Sixty-two percent (62%) of unaffiliated voters oppose the health care plan, and 51% are strongly opposed.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Then why not give individuals the same deductions that companies get on healthcare? Seems like a more sensible solution than a massive gov't instusion.

Who forces the insurance companies to give the deduction? The government? The reason why employers right now get better deals is they have leverage (as in a lot of business for the insurers). You'd like the govt to interfere with a place in the whole system where the free market is dictating price?

ScottM,

Good for people to opt out if they can, but for the reasons mentioned above getting your own care seems to be rarely cheaper than what your company gives you. Furthermore, any company I've worked for always had the high deductable plan. I'd be very interested to see a lot of cases where people on their own could do better than their employers can shopping around.

Agreed on the risk factors though. Smokers/fatties/etc should pay more for insurance.

Spin,

Rasmussen? Didn't he get endorsed by the RNC during the last election.

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

If its private sector you hold the gun. You are able to go to someone else. The gov't is the only one who can legally force you to do anything.

In the private sector each individual controls their fate. With the gov't you're just one of many others who holds the same gun so don't be surprised when its turned on you.

In theory, but in the private sector when large firms dominate it's the same thing. Mom and Pop Oil isn't going to challenge Exxon and Mom and Pop Health isn't going to challenge UHC. It's just as much of a gun, but now I have no hope at all of controlling it unless I'm fortunate enough to be on the board, in which case, the gun isn't pointed at me, anyway.

One of the reasons I lost the Libertarian Faith was the realization that utterly free markets lead to utterly unfree markets because power compounds like interest. We should be wary of governmental power, absolutely, but giving large corporations free rein is just exchanging masters. It's like the tension between church and crown that allowed freedom to develop in the West in the first place. In the modern world, freedom is maintained by a tension between the power of the people (government) and the power of property (business). When either gets too powerful, all but the ruling elite lose.

 

[walrus]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

If its private sector you hold the gun. You are able to go to someone else.

In Maine there might be 2 companies writing health insurance, not much choice there. Anthem might be the only one now

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Another piece detailing the people behind some of these extreme anti-reform claims....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/health/policy/14panel.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Who forces the insurance companies to give the deduction? The government? The reason why employers right now get better deals is they have leverage (as in a lot of business for the insurers). You'd like the govt to interfere with a place in the whole system where the free market is dictating price?

You may want to know what you're talking about next time. The GOV'T gives empolyers a tax deduction to provide employee insurance. People cannot receive the same deduction.

Rasmussen? Didn't he get endorsed by the RNC during the last election.

FYI

Rasmussen most accurate in 2008 election

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

In Maine there might be 2 companies writing health insurance, not much choice there. Anthem might be the only one now

So why can't you get insurance from anothe state? Government.

There are 1300 insurance companies nationwide. I'm pretty sure there would be enough competition if people could shop across state lines.

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Even though the narratives are old, there are plenty of people who sincerely believe them, particularly since they use an insulated "darknet" where only a few information sources constantly recirculate only those concepts that pass the litmus test. Bush still had a 28% approval rating at the end, for God's sake -- that says it all.

Plato's allegory of the cave was created as if with the Fox viewership in mind, but that doesn't make them bad, stupid or even irascible people. What if you faced what you honestly thought was an existential threat to your values and freedoms? Wouldn't you scratch and claw?

The only real "end game" is for the world not to end after the policies are adopted, but even then the goal posts will just be moved, so I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it -- just run the country and let the voters decide. We already know where the 28%ers are, but you don't need 73% to win an election.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Then why not give individuals the same deductions that companies get on healthcare? Seems like a more sensible solution than a massive gov't instusion.

No, you don't seem understand. You see, in this country, you can't choose to quit your job and get a different one if you don't like the options that your employer-provided health insurance provides.

Besides, that's racist.

See? Racist.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

In theory, but in the private sector when large firms dominate it's the same thing. Mom and Pop Oil isn't going to challenge Exxon and Mom and Pop Health isn't going to challenge UHC. It's just as much of a gun, but now I have no hope at all of controlling it unless I'm fortunate enough to be on the board, in which case, the gun isn't pointed at me, anyway.

If individuals are given the same rules then another company can come along (especially in insurance) and offer a better product. Just look at car insurance.

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

If individuals are given the same rules then another company can come along (especially in insurance) and offer a better product. Just look at car insurance.

For the record, I am all for letting any customer sign with any insurance company. I can't imagine why there would be restrictions on getting out-of-state insurance, although my instinct is it's like utility companies protecting their turf by "imprisoning" their customers.

Of course, if you have a national market then you need national minimum standards, and that will offend some people's federalist instincts.